Response to Jim Staley’s Identity Crisis (Hebrew Roots Movement)

“When God speaks of a “new” covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear.” Hebrews 8:13 NLT

contradit - they can't all be right - John 14:6What is it that grounds you to reality?

“What is the most resilient parasite? Bacteria? A virus? An intestinal worm? An idea… An idea can transform the world and rewrite all the rules. It is resilient… highly contagious. Once an idea has taken hold of the brain it’s almost impossible to eradicate… The smallest seed of an idea can grow. It can grow to define or destroy you.” (from the movie Inception)

An idea planted deep in a psyche is a very powerful thing, very difficult to remove, and it may cause untold damage and shape someone’s destiny. I know this because I’ve personally experienced it. Some ideas can liberate and give us great joy, while other ideas can put us in bondage. Consider that Communism started out as an idea for a utopian society. Evolution started as the idea that perhaps God didn’t create us after all. Plato and Aristotle had ideas that shaped how all future Western civilizations would function. All this to say that ideas have power.

I think we often fail to respect the power of ideas. After all, it is ideas that shape our worldview (paradigm, the lens through which we perceive reality). How we see the world, history, God, and Scripture depend on the ideas we let in and the authority we allow shape our worldview. We have a certain amount of responsibility as the gatekeepers of our worldview and thankfully we are not without guidance. If you are born again believer in Jesus Christ, you have the Holy Spirit to guide you. You also have God’s word. These two are the final authority for reality as it truly is. If we have a paradigm shaped by any other source than God’s Holy Spirit or a correct interpretation of God’s word, then our worldview gets bent and twisted and we are living some version of a lie.

Jim Staley in his message Identity Crisis is offering us a new paradigm for both God’s word and history. Should we bite? Will his ideas liberate or enslave? Should we allow this man (and the “Hebrew roots” movement he espouses) to be our shepherd and exert such power in our lives by implanting ideas (with untold amounts of assumptions that often go unchallenged) into our minds and redefine our reality and worldview?

Having an “open mind” to any ideas can be a dangerous thing and we must be careful about who or what we allow to shape our worldview. There is a right way and a wrong way to be open-minded:

“The people of Berea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and they listened eagerly to Paul’s message. They searched the Scriptures day after day to see if Paul and Silas were teaching the truth.” – Acts 17:11

The Bereans would not just swallow anything Paul was saying, however exciting it sounded, but would test all that he said by the word of God. Jim Staley, who I’m sure believes every word of what he preaches, asks us to test him by the Scripture because he feels confident he is on to something. No doubt, Jim Staley has some beautiful insights. After all, no one is completely wrong about everything. In fact, there were times while listening to his message I was excited and praising God because of some of the true things Jim was talking about. But it’s the very nature of all the half-truths throughout his teaching that make it so compelling and so very dangerous.

There is a reason there are so many false religions and cults in the world and billions who adhere to them even though the truth is accessible and the facts are easily obtainable. One can easily prove any false religions and cults false by sound and reasonable arguments and by God’s revealed Word yet people still stubbornly cling to their false beliefs. Why do you think that is? What is it about us or in us that resists whatever contradicts our already held beliefs? (I do it too). Why are we, as humans, stubborn to correction, even when it is this correction that will set our hearts free? Is it fear? Pride? A “we can’t all be wrong” mentality? (Consider the huge Muslim portion of the world’s population).

I don’t pretend to be the corrector or have all the answers or to be free from error myself but I know someone who is and who does, and I know his word is trustworthy. In fact in all the researching I was doing, my own pride was humbled as I was challenged to truly live out the Gospel – the way of the Spirit of God, not as Jim Staley suggests, but as the apostle Paul wrote about in Romans 7:6:

“But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.” (ESV)

This blog is not just about pointing you away from something that I perceive as dangerous based on God’s word, but also about pointing you toward something exceedingly beautiful.

People are in search of answers and this is a good thing. How do we take our relationship with God to the next level? How do we properly love him and others? How do I overcome all that ails my current “Christian” experience? What is the secret to the Christian life? There must be something more!

I say, never stop asking and searching and praying and seeking God until you are filled with the fullness of Christ. Believe me, I have spent years asking these questions and I have found some answers along the way. As much as I would love to download all the wonderful things I have learned that have set my heart free, it just doesn’t work that way. We must all discover and experience these answers for ourselves. It’s between you and Jesus. He wants to walk that journey with you and me. We can only point people to Jesus (aka Yeshua). What is the secret to the Christian life? It is Christ! Keep seeking him and loving him!

I have examined Jim Staley’s message and his bottom line in light of the Scriptures and historical facts and have found him to be false. If you disagree, then please take the time to read on and if you find an error, correct me! Please don’t be scared off by all the words as I did have to wade through more than an hour long teaching. I spent well over a dozen hours of prayerful research and writing this blog over the course of three days and had lots of fun doing so. Perhaps “fun” isn’t the right word considering my heart is weighed down by the fact that Jim Staley has already gotten to thousands with his distortion of the Scripture and historical facts and has already implanted his ideas in their minds. I know how hard an “un-brainwashing” can be and how long it can take (from personal experience), but in the end I trust you will come to a greater appreciation of the Grace of God and the beauty of the Gospel. I have attempted to remove any of my responses that were initially resistant and sometimes snarky and to humbly ask, “Could this be true?” about everything Jim Staley presented.

I would ask you to prayerfully cross examine his teaching (and the Hebrew Roots Movement) for yourself. Ask questions. Question and research everything! Search the Scriptures! The discoveries you make for yourself are going to mean a great deal more than anything I have to tell you. Take it to Jesus, ask him about it, read your Bibles – preferably before you dive into any more brainwashing sessions with Jim.

The first to plead his case seems right,
Until another comes and examines him. (Proverbs 18:17 NASB)

JIM STALEY – “Identity Crisis

For those of you who aren’t interested and won’t read a point by point response to Jim Staley’s talk (below), I have tried to give a summary of his talk and a summary of my response:

SUMMARY OF HIS TALK:

According to Jim Staley, if you are a believer in Jesus, then you are Israel. Like, literally bloodline Israel. He “proves” this by referencing “the most important phrase in the Bible” in a blessing to Ephraim “you will become a multitude of nations” which Jim says actually means “fullness of the Gentiles”. The fact that you responded to the Good news about a Jewish Rabbi and Messiah named Yeshua proves that you are Israel in the bloodline of the lost ten tribes, the Northern kingdom (aka Ephraim), who were exiled by the Assyrians from the promised land and, according to Jim, never returned to their land and became essentially “Jewish Gentiles” spreading Israel’s bloodline to every area of the globe. (In his post talk he allows for converts to the “renewed covenant” from pagan Gentile population, just as there were with the Egyptians joining the community of faith in Exodus, but this is NOT the thrust of his entire message at all). And because you are Israel, you are beholden to keep the entirety of the law and the feasts right down to the ceremonial food laws – with the help of the Holy Spirit of course – and that the New Covenant is simply a renewed and empowered Old Covenant (according to other HRM sources you have a safety net in Jesus (Yeshua) when you do fail). Jim says that Jesus only came to save His Bride (Jews and Israel) and that we must make ourselves ready to bring about the return of Jesus by diligently following the law.

MY RESPONSE:

He’s wrong.

Jim tries to reshape your interpretation of the New Testament, and your identity in Christ. Instead of talking about our identity “in Christ” as Paul focused on (in whom the terms “Jew” and “Gentile” means absolutely nothing), and the freedom of the Gospel (literally “Good News”), Jim instead focuses on your identity “as Israel” and insists that you keep the law, Sabbaths, and feasts. He claims this is biblical mandate!

I am not advocating that we ignore the law of God. I am not saying that the law has no purpose. It serves as a mirror to show how dirty we really are and our desperate need for a Savior. It leads us to Christ! Can you think of a better purpose than this?

How would we have a standard for truth without God revealing it in the law? Sure, we all have a conscience and his laws are built into every human heart, but we can, and have, ignored, profaned, and desensitized our conscience since birth (with the help of our sinful culture and society). The law serves to reawaken our conscience to the holiness of God and the holy standards of righteousness, and makes us aware of the depths of our sinful brokenness.

But, just as we don’t wash our face with the mirror, we certainly don’t become righteous or maintain our righteousness by diligently following the law. I think that while Jim Staley will no doubt agree that we are justified by faith in Christ alone, could he be making the very same mistake that the Galatians made that prompted Paul’s stern letter and warning?:

“Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?” (Galatians 3:3 NIV)

(Of course I realize he has clever ways of denying this by saying the Holy Spirit empowers us and that we aren’t doing any of this by means of the flesh. But by saying that the law, feasts, and Jewish dietary law is mandate flies in the face of so many clear teachings of Paul.)

The Beauty Side Of Our Freedom In Christ

The freedom of the good news is that you get to observe the Sabbath… or not. You get to consider the advice of the dietary laws if you want to eat better and likely live longer… or not. (God tells us what’s best for us because he loves us! But he is not about to make what we eat into a sin issue! Imagine that, God breaking fellowship with you because you had a ham sandwich!). You get to explore the meaning of the feasts and discover Jesus in them… or not. You get to explore the significance of the sacrifices and find the beauty of Christ in them… or not. The point is, that there is no condemnation or mandate for any of these any longer for these are all a dim shadow of things to come… which, incidentally, has COME! (In case you missed it, I’m referring to Jesus Christ.):

“Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.” (Colossians 2:16-17 NIV)

“The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.” (Hebrews 10:1 NIV)

One of the questions I wrestled with as I studied was this: “Weren’t the Jews also being called into a New Covenant that freed them from the sacrificial system, dietary laws, and the “old way of the written code”? Are completed Jews (those who have received their Messiah) now free to eat pork and lobster? Free to observe the feasts and Sabbaths or not?”

Jim Staley’s message hinges on this assumption that Jewish believers are mandated to keep the law, feasts, Sabbaths, and kosher laws (I use the term “law” here loosely because we are all beholden to the law of Christ). But are they? We all assume that Jews must keep the law, the feasts, and kosher laws but the Scriptures from Colossians (above) were no doubt written to Jewish believers in Collossae as well as Gentile, and most certainly the book of Hebrews (above) was written to the Jews.

Jim teaches that by returning to the law, celebrating the feasts, and eating kosher that he is loving and serving Jesus better as God would have him do. He thinks he is earning God’s approval by doing all these things and mandating others to do so. After all Jesus said:

“Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved. 19 So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God’s laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

20 “But I warn you—unless your righteousness is better than the righteousness of the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven!” (Matthew 5:17-20 NLT)

This is Jesus talking so we must take every word he says seriously! It is good for us to wrestle with this and I wouldn’t dare interfere with what Jesus words are meant to effect for you in your life. But Paul, who knew and kept the law better than most anyone, warned us that if we try to find our salvation in keeping the law, we have fallen from grace:

“You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.” (Paul Galatians 5:4 NIV)

So, are we getting mixed messages? Jesus saying, “obey God’s laws and teach them”. And Paul saying if you are trying to be justified (made righteous) by the law then you have been alienated from Christ? What’s going on here?

(As you can see, this can become quite a complicated issue for some, as it was for me for most of my Christian life. It really comes back to humility. Your amount of pride will dictate how you read it and will skew your paradigm of Scripture. Humble yourself and receive grace or go another round in the ring with the law. Can you guess who will win?)

PLEASE don’t let Jim’s heresy rob you of the beauty and richness of the Old Testament, the true purpose and usefulness of the law, and the amazingly beautiful Hebrew and Jewish heritage of our faith. Yes, in many ways we do have Hebrew roots even as Gentile believers in Jesus. We are even refered to as “the Israel of God” in the New Testament. You and I didn’t need Jim Staley to tell us this. The Apostle Paul tells us this. Paul writes that Gentile believers are grafted into spiritual Israel as the wild olive branch (Jim will try to twist the meaning of this) into the olive tree of Jesus and the people of God (Israel):

“But some of these branches from Abraham’s tree–some of the people of Israel–have been broken off. And you Gentiles, who were branches from a wild olive tree, have been grafted in. So now you also receive the blessing God has promised Abraham and his children, sharing in the rich nourishment from the root of God’s special olive tree.” (Romans 11:17 NLT)

“But far be it from me to boast, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world hath been crucified unto me, and I unto the world. For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.” (Galatians 6:14-16 – see this for a wonderful exposition on this verse)

We are grafted in to the blessings and promises of Israel, the people of God! But, this doesn’t mean that we return to the law for not even the Jewish people were asked to do this but to “serve in the new way of the Spirit”! (Romans 7:6) And we have a new law, the law of Christ:

“So now I am giving you a new commandment: Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other.” – John 13:34 (NLT)

Just because there is a spiritual Israel, comprised of believing born again Jews and Gentiles (and there is no difference because Jesus unites us in him), this doesn’t mean that the Jews, of the bloodline of Abraham, are not Israel anymore. God will continue to have dealings with and will always be faithful to all of his promises concerning the physical, natural, bloodline of Abraham, Jews. The Bible is clear on this.

One example of how Jim Staley twists Scripture to suit his purposes:

“Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.” (Romans 7:1-4 NIV)

He claims that this Scripture is addressed only to the “Jewish Gentiles” who are familiar with the law but are estranged from the covenant (the lost ten tribes of Israel) who were divorced by God (see Jeremiah 3:8) and who wern’t allowed back into covenant because of the law of remarriage (see Deuteronomy 24:1-4) that they are now back into the covenant because Jesus death reconciled them to the law. But this isn’t what the Scripture actually says at all is it? How did Jim miss verse 4?

Let’s remember that the New Testament was written by Jewish men about a Jewish Messiah to mostly Jewish listeners. It is important for us to understand the Jewish roots and heritage of our faith, but it is absolutely vital that we not leave Jesus (the one we now belong to) to return to placing ourselves under the law (the thing that we died to) as Jim Staley suggests.

Again, I am sure Jim sincerely believes everything he teaches as every deceived person does. I don’t believe he is knowingly lying to anyone which is why he comes across as so convincing. He is convincing because he is convinced. But as you will see, as we cross examine him in light of Scripture and historical facts, he is in fact deceived and sadly, deceiving others as well.

THE DANGER

Study for yourself in the New Testament the purpose of the law. Paul says it was a tutor to bring you to Christ (Galatians 3:24). Once you have found Christ, are born again and filled with the Spirit, you don’t then return to the tutor! You don’t need him anymore, you have Christ! Unless you don’t have Christ, in which case, go for it. If you want to spend a few or more miserable years under God’s curse (the law) then it is your choice. Maybe that’s exactly what is needed to break your pride to bring you to Christ. I mean it. Dive in. Try to keep the whole law. Why not raise some goats and sheep and do the sacrifices he requires too. But be sure to carry out it’s punishment. If you sin in such a way to exclude you from the community, then your out. If you sin in such a way as to merit the death penalty… (it would be unethical for me to suggest anything at this point).

This is what the law is: your condemnation. It’s purpose is to humble your pride and so make you poor in spirit (Matthew 5:3) and ready for the Savior. At it’s core, the law is good and loving. It is the good and loving instructions of a good and loving God. But you are not good and loving and you will find yourself judged as such and crushed under it’s weight. In the end you will be filled with utter horror and despair. If you need to find that out for yourself as I did, be my guest, though I don’t recommend it. I won’t judge you or love you any less and will welcome you back with open arms when you do return. I had to go that route myself as you can read about in many of my earlier blogs.

Jesus fulfilled the sacrifices and the whole of the law and took away all that condemns us (sigh of relief) IF (and only if) you trust in Jesus and him alone (not in the keeping of the law) for salvation and are born again by His Spirit! Then (and only then) do we become partakers of his New Covenant. Christ in us and we in Christ – the new and living way of abundant life – the Spirit of Jesus in you, fellowshipping with you and guiding you, washing you, making you holy and most of all, making you loving! This is the new covenant! Not a renewed strength and zeal to tackle the old covenant successfully down to each particular ceremonial food law, keeping to the letter of the law… this is way of death.

Please press on to fully embrace and explore this New Covenant. You will know you are living it when you love others as Christ has loved you and when you love Jesus with all your heart. Without love you are nothing (1 Corinthians 13).

As always, if there is something you disagree with or want to discuss, or find me in error, PLEASE correct me! Leave a message so that we can dialogue. I would be happy to correct any errors!

———–

POINT BY POINT THROUGH JIM STALEY’S IDENTITY CRISIS:

Jim Staley starts out his talk with five minutes of reporting on the deplorable condition of the church. No doubt Jim Staley has some solutions to fix what ails us. Lets dive in and examine what he has to say.

THREE COMMON MYTHS

Jim Staley says the following three statements are common myths:

1. He states that the Jewish people are not the chosen people. Are the Jewish people the chosen people?

While addressing the Jewish people God says this in Deuteronomy 14:1-2:

“Since you are the people of the Lord your God, never cut yourselves or shave the hair above your foreheads in mourning for the dead. 2 You have been set apart as holy to the Lord your God, and he has chosen you from all the nations of the earth to be his own special treasure.” New Living Translation (NLT)

(Do you need more than that? If so read below – if not, skip to point # 2.)

The Torah also says,

“Now therefore, if you will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then you shall be a peculiar treasure unto me from all the peoples, for all the earth is mine” (Exodus 19:5).

“And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.” (Genesis 17:7).

“And you shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation” (Exodus 19:6).

“The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people; for you were the fewest of all people; but because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your ancestors.” (Deuteronomy 7:7-8).

“You only have I singled out of all the families of the earth: therefore will I visit upon you all your iniquities.” (Amos 3:2)

2. Jim Staley states that the Torah and the law were not given to the Jews.

Was the Torah and the law given to the Jews? Yes, of course it was. Just read Exodus thru Deuteronomy.

Paul in his letter to the Romans remarked that this was one of the very things that made the Jews special – that they were entrusted with God’s word. Romans 3:1-2 “What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2 Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God”

3. Was the Passover and other Feast days that Jesus and the disciples kept “Jewish” feast days or not? Jim Staley says they aren’t.

Bible answer: Yes. Every Feast day has it’s roots in God’s dealings with his chosen people the Jews. Here are a few websites that go over these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_holidays

http://revive-israel.org/2006/fall_feasts.htm

http://biblelight.net/feasts.htm

THE TWELVE TRIBES

Jim Staley said that only one tribe was “Jewish” of the 12 tribes gathered at mount Sinai? Why would he say this? Every tribe is Jewish, and every tribe was there at Mount Sinai. There is no explanation for this until later in his talk when he says that only Judah returned to the promised land and so, only Judah is Jewish. Which is ridiculous and not true as we will look at later on.

He then touches on the blessings Jacob gives to his sons. Jacob’s firstborn blessing goes to… (drumroll please)… (pause for effect)…

Judah! and Joseph? Of course Jacob’s spiritual firstborn blessing went to Judah. Later, Jacob gives a firstborn blessing to Ephraim, Joseph’s son:

“…he (Manasseh) also will become a people and he also will be great. However, his younger brother (Ephraim) shall be greater than he, and his descendants shall become a multitude of nations.” Genesis 48:19

Jim Staley says that “multitude of nations” in Ephraims blessing is THE most important phrase in the Bible. Then Jim redefines this phrase to mean “fullness of the Gentiles” – obviously to tie it to that phrase also found in the New Testament and so link it in peoples minds:

“I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles (some translations render this “fullness of the Gentiles”) comes to Christ.” – Romans 11:25 NLT

Later, Jim Staley redefines Gentile here and above in Ephraim’s blessing to mean “Jewish Gentile”. Which is nonsense. Gentile means any person who is not Jewish.

Jim Staley insists that the ten tribes of Israel became immersed into the surrounding nations at the time of their deportation and their bloodline would have mingled with the surrounding nations and become indistinguishable from any pagan Gentiles essentially losing their identity.

I would venture to say that most Jews know who they are even though they have been dispersed into most every nation around the world (and yes, becoming in essence, a multitude of nations). Ephraim (being the largest of the 10 tribes, and from which came both Joshua son of Nun, successor to Moses and Jeroboam, the first King of the Northern ten tribes) came to represent all of Israel, the Northern kingdom, who were first to be dispersed to all the Gentile nations at the Assyrian conquest of Israel.

It would be a fabrication to say that they don’t know who they are however. It’s just that we don’t know who and where they all are – that doesn’t mean that they are “lost” tribes at all. Lost tribe is NOT a biblical phrase or idea at all. And remember, Hitler had little trouble identifying more than 6 million of them to murder throughout Europe.

Do you honestly think that being a Jew is easy to forget? Just think about what would have to happen for people to lose their identity and forget who they are. Parents, grandparents and great grand parents would have to willfully not tell their kids, grandkids, great grand kids that they were Jewish. The truth would get out. Can you even imagine a people group trying to deceive their children and hide their identity from them? Talk about a conspiracy theory!

What does Scripture say about the lost tribes of Israel?

Paul verifies that the 10 tribes were not lost at all in Acts 26:7: “This is the promise our twelve tribes are hoping to see fulfilled as they earnestly serve God day and night. O king, it is because of this hope that the Jews are accusing me.”

Jesus affirms the existence of all 12 tribes in Matthew 19:28, “Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

Dave Hunt says this at his website at www.thebereancall.org regarding this notion of the lost 10 tribes: “James wrote his epistle to the 12 tribes scattered abroad, so I guess he didn’t know that 10 of them were lost… God has promised that He would preserve them, and in the last days would bring them back into their land (which incidentally he has). And Jesus promised that his disciples would sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. So, if 10 of them are lost, then the Bible isn’t true, and as you said, God must be 100% true, so this is very serious. So, if 10 tribes are really lost, then God’s a liar, and Jesus is a liar. Now, what about it? What does the Bible say? See, this is a myth, as you said, it comes out of the idea, well, because there were 10 tribes carried away by the Assyrians, that therefore they never came back. Now that’s a joke! Of course they came back.”

Indeed Biblical history records that a population from many if not all of the so called “lost tribes” stayed on in the land of Israel at the time of the Assyrian exile and intermarried with people groups that the Assyrians imported to the land of Israel and became the Samaritans.

It was interesting to look at the various people groups who do trace their lineage as Jewish and many know from which tribe they come as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Lost_Tribes

Jim Staley says that northern Israel never came back? This is not true.

Who are the Jews today? Jim says just Judah. Is he right? No.

“Israel became as Gentiles and he will gather them all to the land again.” Jim says.

Why does Jim Staley seem to be ignorant of what occurred before and after 1948 when Israel became a nation again? Why does he ignore this? He keeps insisting there is a future calling back of the northern tribes to Israel. Isn’t he aware that the land of Israel is full of Jews from every tribe and has been since before 1948? And they keep coming. God has and is fulfilling his promise to regather his people, the Jews, to the land of the Jews.

THE BRIDE OF CHRIST

Jim said that the Bride must be spotless before he comes back to take her with him, he says Jesus will not take a spotted bride back with him. Insinuating what? It’s up to us to purify ourselves by keeping the law by the Spirit to usher in the coming of Jesus, rather than the good news of the Gospel that Christ actually accomplished our justification and sanctification at the cross.

I was immediately reminded of this Scripture:

“Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.” (Ephesians 5:25-27)

This shows that sanctification is something Jesus does for us, not what we do for him as Jim Staley insinuates. Jesus said at the cross, “It is finished”. Jim Staley says, wait just a minute, maybe not.

Which brings up a very important question:

Is salvation a God’s work or ours?

This question has plagued theologians for ages and prompted many arguments. This is what the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate is all about. I believe the answer is less complicated than theologians make it. According to the following Scripture, the answer is both:

“Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.” (Philipians 2:12-13 NIV)

(Great article on this Scripture)

Salvation is Christ’s work from start to finish! He promises to complete what he has started:

“…being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus” – Philippians 1:6 NIV).

I don’t want to in any way diminish the fact that we have a responsibility to obey the Gospel of God. Our part is to work out this salvation with fear (reverence) and trembling, obey and follow Jesus and the Holy Spirits leading and impulses, REST in him, rejoice, and just be thankful as we love God and others and fulfill the law of Christ (to love)! Not what Jim in the end suggests that we do. Keep the law, observe your Sabbaths, keep the feasts, etc…

Jesus said that the abundant Christian life he has for us is easy and restful! Are you experiencing this?

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” (Matthew 11:28-30 NIV)

His “yoke” refers to his teaching. As I read through the whole Bible in a few months time I was impacted by the overwhelming message of the New Testament: “Relax in Jesus! Rest in Him!”

“So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.” (John 8:36 NIV)

THE BLOODLINE ISSUE

Why does Jim Staley build this entire case for Ephraim and the “lost ten tribes of Israel” and say that Jesus only came to save his Bride, He only came for Israel, and then suggest that the reason that you have responded to the Gospel is because you are a “Jewish Gentile” and must have the bloodline of Israel. He uses a foolish argument, “Why would pagans respond to the news that some Jewish rabbi named Jesus has now made it possible to be reconciled to God?” He says, “That’s because the apostle Paul and all the rest of the apostles were only reaching out to the lost tribes (Jewish Gentile). To say to those estranged from the covenant that you are received back into the covenant. He has made a way for those that God had divorced (Israel) to be remarried to Christ.”

There is an element of something beautiful here as well as a dangerous and blasphemous heresy. God did indeed want the Diaspora (the estranged Jews from the covenant and homeland – i.e.. “Ephraim”) to know that they were accepted and embraced back into the fold of the people of God by the sacrifice and death of Jesus, but not back into the Old Covenant but into something new. And this did not apply to only the Jews but also to everyone else.

THE GOSPEL TO THE JEW FIRST – THEN ALSO THE GENTILE

“For I am not ashamed of this Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone who believes–the Jew first and also the Gentile.” (Romans 1:16)

Paul indeed went to synagogues to his fellow Jews (the Diaspora) first with this good news, but if they rejected it he said, “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.” (Acts 13:46 NIV)

And again:

Acts 18:6 But when the Jews opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am clear of my responsibility. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.”

Acts 22:21 “Then the Lord said to me, ‘Go; I will send you far away to the Gentiles.'”

Acts 28:28 “Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!”

First of all, the Bible can’t say Gentile any other way than to say Gentile (meaning everyone who is not a Jew). How convenient then that Jim Staley invents the idea of  a “Jewish Gentile”. According to his view, how unfortunate it is for all who fail to have a drop of Jewish blood in them to be saved because Jesus didn’t come for you (Hey, it’s what is implied). It’s ridiculous!

Honestly, God does not need literal Abraham blood line to somehow make any of us special in God’s sight – to think that we somehow as believers have a literal blood tie to the so called “lost 10 tribes” is ridiculous. God knows who they are and most of them know who they are.

Just think. If you are human (and you are) then you have a blood line to God himself (see Luke 3) and all of us share part of Christ’s lineage back to God himself from Noah and back on up the line to Adam with whom he made his first promise of salvation by sending the seed of woman to crush the serpent and free us all (see Genesis 3).

THE MYSTERY OF THE GOSPEL

“Mystery”, in Biblical terms means “a spiritual truth heretofore hidden, incapable of discovery by mere reason, but now revealed.” (Fauset’s Bible Dictionary). The mystery of the Gospel is that everyone else besides the Jews (the Gentiles) are now welcome and accepted at the table of God’s grace to freely receive the blessings and promises of Abraham and the salvation that Jesus offers. You have already been reconciled to the Father through the sacrifice of Jesus. Accept it. Receive it. Believe it. Open the gift.

“Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him.” – Romans 16:25-26

SCRIPTURE

Jim Staley asserts that when Paul wrote, “all Scripture was God breathed and useful for…” (2 Timothy 3:16) that he was only referring to the Old Testament. But, consider that when Peter writes his second letter he says that people were distorting Pauls letters as they do the other Scriptures (see this Scripture below), thus asserting that Pauls letters were Scripture! All the churches possessed these letters of Paul and Gospels (some really early Gospels by 50’s AD) which they copied and shared and copied and shared among each other to every community of believers on the planet at the time. Yes they had the Old Testament but they had the whole of the New Testament by AD 100 which was already considered Scripture!

“Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.” – 2 Peter 3:15-16 NIV

Jim redefines words and terms used in the New Testament by the Hebrew Scriptures? Which sounds like a good idea except that I have read that Greek is in fact a far more expressive and precise language than Hebrew is. It can define itself quite clearly as it is which is why God chose to deliver his most important message to the world in this language (I have heard that HRM have suggested that the New Testament was originally in Hebrew – there is no evidence to support this at all).

We must remember however, that the New Testament flows from the context of the Tanach (O.T.) and it is a thoroughly Jewish story from Genesis to Revelation. Certianly the New Testament can be best understood by being familiar with the Tanach. I was struck, when I read through the Bible in a few months time, of how Jewish the whole of the New Testament really is!

It has been said that the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed (Here is a great article about this). As believers in Jesus we understand the Old Testament in light of the New, AND vice versa.

WHO DID JESUS COME FOR?

Did Jesus come only for His people the Jews or Israel (lost tribes or otherwise)? Jim Staley insists that Jesus came only for his Bride, only for his people (Jews and Israel).

Jesus did in fact say, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” (Matthew 15:24 NIV)

For the sake of God’s plan and purpose for his people the Jews and their salvation, this was only right and ought to be a compelling reason that the Jews should (and some did) receive their own Messiah. But, they were hardened for the benefit of the rest of the world… but not forever. (See Romans 11)

Do you remember that some Greeks wished to see Jesus and Jesus response?

Some Greeks who had come to Jerusalem for the Passover celebration 21 paid a visit to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee. They said, “Sir, we want to meet Jesus.” 22 Philip told Andrew about it, and they went together to ask Jesus.

23 Jesus replied, “Now the time has come for the Son of Man to enter into his glory. 24 I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat is planted in the soil and dies, it remains alone. But its death will produce many new kernels—a plentiful harvest of new lives.” (John 12:20-24 NLT)

So you see, it was always God’s plan to reach the whole world. Have we forgotten what John 3:16 says:

“For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.”

The everyone who believes are one and the same as the scattered children of God (which Jim would say are only refering to out of covenant Jewish Gentiles):

“Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, “You know nothing at all! 50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”

51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, 52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.” John 11:49-52 NIV

It is distressing that Jim hijacks and redefines all these passages with his “Gentile Jewish” paradigm. Of course he would interpret the “scattered children of God” as this.

Again Jesus says in John 10:16:

“I have other sheep (Gentiles) that are not of this sheep pen (12 tribes of Israel). I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.”

No doubt Jim would interpret this through his paradigm of Jewish Gentile. But how does Jim ignore Jesus instructions to his disciples? After his resurrection, Jesus Christ commissioned his disciples to preach the message of the kingdom of God to all nations:

“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” (Matthew 28:19-20)

And then he told them, “Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone. Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved. But anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned.” (Mark 16:15-16 NLT)

And he said, “Yes, it was written long ago that the Messiah would suffer and die and rise from the dead on the third day. 47 It was also written that this message would be proclaimed in the authority of his name to all the nations,[all peoples] beginning in Jerusalem: ‘There is forgiveness of sins for all who repent.’” (Luke 24:46-47 NLT)

So yes, while Jesus was sent to and for his Jewish brothers (“to his own”) he sends out his disciples to everyone else.

Once again, to delineate between “pagan Gentiles” and “Jewish Gentiles” is silly and is dangerous to anyone taking this seriously. He is suggesting that the pagan Gentiles are doomed and all the Jewish Gentiles will be saved. This is flat out heresy and is not what Paul was excited about or why he was appointed to be the missionary to the Gentiles – but only the Jewish Gentiles. “Sorry pagan gentiles, you are out.” WRONG!

There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

According to Jim, if we happen to be Gentiles we all better pray there is a drop of “Jewish Gentile” blood in us or we too are doomed. That is not what Gods heart is, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. Not just all the Disporia or so called “Jewish Gentile”. Jim’s Gospel is not good news to any pagan gentile. This is fubar religious nonsense.

GOD WANTS EVERYONE TO BE SAVED!

“God our Savior, who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.” 1 Timothy 2:3-4 NLT

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Jim Staley suggests that Cornelius was a “Gentile Jew” because he has to be to fit his theory. What shenanigans Jim is up to.

His 10 second treatise of predestination? What was that? Does he fully agree with Calvin? Would Calvin agree with him?

Peter and James were both ministers specifically to Jewish believers, so their letter intros make sense in light of this.

He redifines everything to insinuate that the “mystery” of the Gospel was not the inclusion of pagan Gentiles but the remarriage of God to the lost tribes (so called “Jewish Gentiles”).

Jim’s bottom line: “You are Israel!” Yes, spiritually we are Israel in so much as we are believers and are grafted into the vine of Jesus and depend on him fully for our salvation and not our own works or adherence to the law, Sabbaths, and feasts. But the Jews are Israel as well.

SHEEP IN NEED OF A SHEPHERD

At the start of this blog I asked if Jim was qualified to be a shepherd (i.e. “pastor”) to us. Jim says at the end of his talk that we are sheep and gullible. I can’t help but agree with him.

Paul says at the end of the book of Acts:

“I know that false teachers, like vicious wolves, will come in among you after I leave, not sparing the flock.” (Acts 20:29 NLT)

Yes, it’s true, we are all sheep which is precisely why we need a good Shepherd, and I’m sorry Jim, I already have one. The job has been filled.

Jim’s Post TALK:

Jim trys to clear up the blood line question though you cannot deny that his teaching contradicts his supposed correction. In fact the blood line and the Ephraim blessing was the whole thrust of his message.

He clears up the replacement theology issue by simply denying it.

He keeps insisting that the Jewish people is just Judah and that the rest of Israel is dispersed and lost and has no idea who they are. Which is not true. They may not be aware of which specific tribe they are from but most have a knowledge of who they are. This was true in Jesus day (which even Jim draws attention to by mentioning Josephus and historical records of the time) and still true now.

God has regathered his people from all tribes into the nation of Israel – they are now the reconstituted nation of the dry bones prophecy of Ezekiel, and will be enlivened by the Holy Spirit in the last days. And they are temporarily excluded from the fullness of the covenant to the advantage of all who Jim refers to as the pagan Gentiles. But this won’t always be the case (Romans 11).

The Hebrew language had no other way to say Gentiles than to say Goyim which refers to nations as well. That is perfectly fine, but still there is the overriding implication of bloodline here which he tries to say isn’t important in his post talk but was central to the entire intitial teaching. You can’t just backpeddal like that trying to redefine what you initially and actually said. Unless you are Jim Staley and then you can. (Listen, Paul was kind of snarky to the Judaizers of his day, saying that he wished they would castrate themselves, so I think its ok to be a bit snarky to modern day Judaizers like Jim Staley.)

I must say that there were many aspects of the teaching that WERE true and exciting and caused me to praise God and worship God and get really excited. BUT this doesn’t validate his teaching or his direction he is taking this, because he is taking this in a dangerous direction. The apostle Paul, whom Jim venerates and respects so highly, would punch him in the nose and say, “What are you doing? Haven’t you understood anything I was trying to say in all me letters? Why are you insisting on going back to the law when you have something so much better?” Is Jim Staley a modern Judaizer and an enemy to the true Gospel? I think he is.

If he is preaching a different Gospel then these warnings Paul wrote to the Galatians are true of him and also applies to anyone taken in by him:

“I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel (good news) at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!” (Galatians 1:6-9)

JIM STALEYS BOTTOM LINE:

You, as a believer, are Israel, the lost Northern Kingdom, so you better learn the covenant our ancestors kept. He is saying, go back to the law, the renewed old covenant, keep the feasts, observe the ceremonial food laws, and keep the Sabbath.

Do Christians have to obey the Old Testament law?

I’m just going to end with many Scriptures that Jim Staley no doubt is scrambling to redefine for you before you read them for yourself. I did check at his website and saw that he already has teachings to redefine Romans and Galatians, both of which contain clear warnings of the likes of Jim Staley and his false teaching.

GOD’S BOTTOM LINE:

Romans 10:4 (ESV)
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Galatians 3 (ESV)

23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

Ephesians 2:15 (ESV)
15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

Romans 7:7–9
The Law and Sin
7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

Galatians 3:24 (ESV)
24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

Romans 6:15 (ESV)
15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

Romans 7:6 (ESV)
“But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.”

Concerning keeping ceremonial food laws, feasts, Sabbath day:

In Colossians 2:16-17, the apostle Paul declares, “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.” Similarly, Romans 14:5 states, “One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.”

(Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Sabbath-keeping.html)

ACTS 15:

“Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

12 The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13 When they finished, James spoke up. “Brothers,” he said, “listen to me. 14 Simon has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles. 15 The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:

16 “‘After this I will return
and rebuild David’s fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17 that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
even all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things’—
18 things known from long ago.
19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.” (Acts 15 NIV)

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Categories: Exposing Self-Righteous Religion, Gospel | Tags: , , , , , , , , | 169 Comments

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169 thoughts on “Response to Jim Staley’s Identity Crisis (Hebrew Roots Movement)

  1. This is great. I have to say, thank God for men who dedicate themselves to studying and discecting these difficult teachings. I had an extremely hard time after watching this sermon that it has literally consumed my thoughts for the last week and a half. I just can’t understand how these people get it so off. At the same time, I get it. I see how it is attractive and seems like a new experience to “do” more for God and love Him in a new way. Then again it totally contradicts everything I’ve ever learned about our Lord and who we are in Christ. Now I see that it is truely the wrath of God that people are given over to these false doctrines and deceptions. The Lord hands people over to be deceived and that is His wrath! It’s scary and who can withstand His indignation!? This is freaky, but I believe that He will make good out of it even if it seems so terrible. Through the last week I have learned an extreme deal of love and grace through these dealings and arguments. I mean we are made free from the curse of disobedience!! He has given us that blessing that Jesus earned! How much better does it get?! And I know that His yoke is easy and His burden light. So breath in peace… Now it’s time to pray that our loved ones aren’t further pulled into the lies of Satan. Anyway, thanks Daniel for this post. It has encouraged me and said all that I wanted to say but didn’t have the time to dig for myself. This is truth and God is good 🙂 in Christ
    Jacob

    • I have to say, I was humbled and moved by your response. The awesome part about experiencing the condemnation of the law is experiencing the grace after. I think we all have to go through this experience, and we are all better off for it in the end. I treasure God’s grace more now than ever and that while his anger may last for a night, his joy comes in the morning (when you finally awake to the grace that will last for all eternity)!

      For his anger lasts only a moment, but his favor lasts a lifetime! Weeping may last through the night, but joy comes with the morning. Psalm 30:5

    • Will

      Jacob,
      For the record I am truly offended by your words. You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I won’t be grudge you that but to say that someone is immersed in the lies of Satan simply because their theology doesn’t mesh with your own is a little arrogant. I like all godly Messianics teach salvation by grace and grace alone. That there is no other name in heaven or on earth by which man can be saved. But I follow what Jesus said when he said, if you love me then obey my commandments” what commandments? All of them! The commandments given at Sinai those came from Jesus. Jesus created the kosher dietary laws. Jesus established the festivals. Jesus declared the death penalty for not keeping Sabbath. All those things came from Jesus. Jesus ordered the Hebrews to wipe out every man, woman and child in Cannan. Jesus ordered the destruction of sodom and Gomorrah. Keep that in mind as you read through the NT. You quote the verse about Jesus’s yoke being easy and naively and mistakenly believe this is a subtle reference to the abolishment of the Law the same Law Jesus told the Pharisees he had not come to abolish. You believe this because you don’t understand the Hebrew context of the yoke, which by the way was a reference not to the written Torah but to the incalculable man made laws that had come into existence since Sinai and had become a burden to the people. You say this doesn’t jive with everything you have been taught about Jesus but everything you have been taught has been passed down by men who may have loved G-d but they hated his people and so for almost two millennium they have set themselves to separating us from the Hebrew roots of our faith. You have been robbed of your birthright. I sincerely hope you will fight one day to get it back.

  2. Very nice of you Daniel to dedicate your time to stamp out false teaching with respect to this issue. I find it troubling that salvation by works like in modern judeo influences is so attractive to some… Going back to the law is NOT the answer… Going forward by grace through faith and in obedience is the answer!

    • Will

      Hebraic roots or Messianics don’t teach salvation by works, like all followers in Christ they believe in salvation by grace and grace alone. But grace does not nullify the law Romans 3:31. Yeshua said if you love me you will keep my commandments.

  3. Jacob, I hope you don’t mind, but I was blown away by your insight that you emailed me. I hope you don’t mind that I repost it here for the benefit of anyone who might visit this post:

    “I see that what he is trying to do is bring back the Law of the old covenant and convince people to follow that again. I find all over the Bible things that point to a bigger law! Yes these laws may be good, but that can’t and never have brought anyone to a righteous standing before God.

    Paul was the best of the best at following the Law and he counted it all as rubbish in the light of knowing Christ! All I mean to say is that the Law is good and by no means is it taken away, but Jesus pointed us to the heart of the Law and that is to Love your neighbour as yourself. If we fail to do this, we’ve broken the entire Law. And if we succeed in loving our neighbour (by the grace of God and the help of the Holy Spirit) then we’ve fulfilled the entire Law!”

    I love this response! Thanks!

    • Will

      Guys think for a second about what you are saying. You keep saying the law of the Old Testament. Well that law is not just kosher eating or sabbath, it’s also don’t commit adultery, have no other gods before me, do not murder, do not steal. Do you believe these commandments have been done away? I should certainly hope not…they are wonderful things. And the heart of the Law is not just love thy neighbor that is only half. It is also to love The Lord your G-d with all of your heart, with all of your soul and with all of your strength. How do we do that? Jesus said if you love me you will keep my commandments. So which commandments is he referring to? Well we all believe or should believe that Jesus and the Father are one and the same so the commandments given in the OT were given by Jesus. We also have to ask ourselves this…do we believe that God is the same yesterday, today and forever? If we do then how do we believe that G-d sets a standard for one generation but absolves it for the next? Or that he has a standard for one group of people (Jews) but for another (Gentiles) he declares His standard done away with? The real issue is that you believe that salvation was attained in the OT by keeping the Law but I find no evidence of this in scripture. G-d gives His people the Law certainly but He knows there is no way they can possibly keep it perfectly so he establishes at the same time a system of sacrifice to atone for the sins of the people. But this system is both inadequate and insufficient and so G-d sends Himeself as the sacrifice. People in the OT were not saved by the Law no human being ever has so it’s incorrect to say that Messianics want to take us back to a system of obeying the Law that system has never been done away with.

  4. Donald J. Clairmont

    Baruch HaShem Dani’el Very good read! Yours for the salvation of Y’srael a true Goy who believes that Y’shua is the Moshiach! Hey, I grew up in the Jewish Community and was mentored by a Jewish believer. http://www.ariel.org

  5. Your bottom line is wonderful, but I there are some definitions that needs to be explored. Not the following;

    Deut. 6:25 And if we are careful to obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness.

    What is scripture according to Paul or any other followers during that time? I would assume that they did not have the completed (today’s version) new testament.

    Then what law should we follow? And why are we against the teachings found in the “Scriptures”.

    And how can we claim to follow “Christ” and do nothing that he did?

    And the most puzzling statement is this “Matthew 5: 17-20 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

    And then in Isaiah 56 (the whole chapter) For this is what the Lord says:

    “To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant—to them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that will endure forever.
    And foreigners who bind themselves to the Lord to minister to him, to love the name of the Lord,
    and to be his servants, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant—these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations.”

    Jeremiah only mentions the new coveant to the isrealites and to Judah ;Jeremiah 31:31-34 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”

    And here is what Peter had to say about Paul;

    2nd Peter 3:16 “He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.”

    And I could go on and on and on, but those are some points.

    • Thanks for all your Scriptures and thoughts. I will respond more fully a bit later, but for now just had a few thoughts:

      This can become quite a complicated issue for some, as it was for me for most of my Christian life. It really comes back to humility. Your amount of pride will dictate how you read the Word and will skew your paradigm of Scripture. Humble yourself and receive grace or go another round in the ring with the law. Can you guess who will win? My money is on the law. It wins every time rendering us humbled and ready for grace. The law is good and a beautiful thing for it leads us to Christ! YEA!

      • Daniel your article is thought provoking, and their are questions that I need answers to on this journey be it the keeping the law or not keeping the law. In deut 30:11-20 it reads “Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

        See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

        But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

        This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

        And what is wrong with keeping the law, if you desire too? We keep the law of the church (Sabbath (Sunday), and Feast (Christmas, Easter). The reason I say it is the law of the church, is that I haven’t been given the evidence the it exited in the Scriptures. If I have pride (which I do), then why won’t anyone answer my questions from a scripture and or historical background. I know whats been done before (Was involved in the church board, sunday school teacher, youth leader) I just want answers that isn’t an opinion. I can use Pauls writings to be for the law or I can use it against the law.

        Is the Paul the new messiah, that he can change scriptures and the old invaild?

        Just a lot of questions, sorry.

      • Will

        Daniel this piece of advice you gave to Sincy applies to you as well. Perhaps you should consider if your pride is skewing how you choose to read scriptures. After all Sincy is challenging you to rethink everything you have ever known and that can be a difficult and scary thing. So ask yourself do you hold to the beliefs you do but they can be validated or do you hold to them because it is tradition. Remember Jesus’s greatest accusation against the Pharisees was that they had abandoned the laws of G-d for the sake of their traditions.

      • Gem

        Should we then give up attempting to follow the Torah, because we can’t do it perfectly? What standard of righteousness is there then? What defines what love IS? It is left for us to make up our own, easier to attain to standards of what love is. Standards that don’t challenge us or humble us, or highlight our great need for grace. Homosexuality… Adultery… There can be arguments made that these are loving. I’m weighing up these doctrines myself at the moment and wishing I could make a quick phone call to Paul for clarification. But this really stands out to me. (Ps God forgives even homosexuality and adultery when there is repentance).

      • “Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, “You must not covet.” 8 But sin used this command to arouse all kinds of covetous desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power. 9 At one time I lived without understanding the law. But when I learned the command not to covet, for instance, the power of sin came to life, 10 and I died. So I discovered that the law’s commands, which were supposed to bring life, brought spiritual death instead. 11 Sin took advantage of those commands and deceived me; it used the commands to kill me. 12 But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good.” (Romans 7: 7-12 NLT)

    • Sincy,

      From your responses and questions, I really, really like your heart! This whole issue is not one of those things that you can have a simple answer and walk away feeling satisfied and perhaps a bit smug because now you know something. Indeed, it’s a dangerous thing when we think we know something.

      “Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much. But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.” 1 Corinthians 8:2-3 NLT

      Put another way:

      “If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if anyone loves God, he is known by God.” (ESV)

      I am not the answer man. In fact, I think it is a shame that Christianity has been so cerebral and fact oriented rather than experience oriented. We were created for experiencing God and life in all it’s fullness, not created for the aim that we may someday sign our names to the bottom of some orthodox creed and therefore receive salvation for believing all the “right things”.

      I have wrestled with these same issues of the law. What are the demands God has placed on us? How much of the law are we supposed to keep, all of it, or just parts of it? Which parts? etc…

      I see this line of thinking as a distraction from what Jesus really came to bring us. It misses the point. Consider this: Jesus promises Abundant Life, free from worry. He tells us not to let our hearts be troubled, neither be afraid. Jesus wants to move us all into a glorious way of living. The way always intended us to live. Completely surrounded and filled and made complete in love and in loving relationship with God and each other.

      Abundant life and eternal life are words describing a rich and beautiful relationship with God, again this is completely free of stress, worry, anxiety, fear, and striving (if we have these then we are still missing the point and not yet made mature by his love). Jesus says eternal life is knowing God and Jesus Christ (John 17:3) and later John writes that Jesus is eternal life:

      “We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.” (1 John 5:20)

      Christianity is EASY!

      Jesus says his way is easy and light (Matthew 11:28-30). John writes that his commands are not burdensome (1 John 5:3).

      The crucial issue here is this: Do we know Jesus? And do we love Jesus? Are we actually coming to him and partaking of the abundant life in him every day? Do you wake up to his smile and talk with him throughout the day with joy and peace in your heart?

      If not, (and I am often sorely lacking – and so preaching to myself more than anyone) than what is standing in the way?

      Perhaps idolatry? – meaning that something or some sin is more important to us than this rich relationship with God. John ends his letter with, “little children, keep yourselves from idols” (1 John 5:21). And Jonah said “those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs.”

      Are we being good students of grace? Because grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and to live soberly and righteously:

      For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope–the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (Titus 2:11-14 NIV)

      May God make us good students of His Grace!

      Jesus says, “Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.” (John 14:21)

      “This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.” (1 John 5)

      What law anywhere in the Bible do we have a problem with? Jesus says they are all (the 10 commandments and all the 613 laws of Moses) are summed up in one command: love.

      Love God and love one another.

      The secret to the Christian life is to love Jesus and love other believers. Because those who love Jesus will just naturally do what pleases him. And love does no harm to anyone but fulfills the law.

      But this loving God and others is completely fueled by Being Loved Gy God, (“we love because he first loved us”), and having the love of God implanted in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. We have the grace and ability to love (what he commands) because He gives his Holy Spirit!

      “And this hope will not lead to disappointment. For we know how dearly God loves us, because he has given us the Holy Spirit to fill our hearts with his love.” (Romans 5:5 NLT)

      The problem with a law centered living is that it neglects relationship. This is what God has always been offering to us since the garden. It’s what we were created for! A wonderful relationship – a friendship with God. Abraham got this and was known as a friend of God.

      God has given us the gift of eternal life, or the gift of his friendship:

      “For since our friendship with God was restored by the death of his Son while we were still his enemies, we will certainly be saved through the life of his Son. 11 So now we can rejoice in our wonderful new relationship with God because our Lord Jesus Christ has made us friends of God.” (Romans 5 NLT)

      Jesus invites us back to friendship when we have neglected and have ignored it:

      “Look! I stand at the door and knock. If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in, and we will share a meal together as friends.” (Revelation 3:20)

      I will try to respond now to the Scriptures you cited!

      Exciting stuff!

      Daniel

      • Will

        Daniel,
        I’m sorry but I find your reference to Christianity as to cerebral to be…well grossly inaccurate. For the last two millennium Christianity has been entirely experience oriented. Worst yet due to the disastrous influence of Catholicsm which continues to darken the hearts and minds of Protestantism today, modern day Christians tend to seek out mystery and experience over truth. They value emotional sermons rather than grinding it out in the trenches of scripture. They want a Hare Krishna like Jesus passing out flowers in an airport than one who challenged us to immerse ourselves in the Torah.

    • Sincy, I really enjoyed your challenges and the Scriptures you bring to light. I am on your side and want to be as Paul wrote a worker together with you for your joy. I am glad we get to explore the Scriptures together and discover wonderful things along the way.

      “Not that we lord it over your faith, but we work with you for your joy, because it is by faith you stand firm.” 2 Corinthians 1:24

      You wrote:

      Note the following:

      Deut. 6:25 And if we are careful to obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness.

      My Response:

      Two thoughts on this Scripture. First, yes, absolutely true! It would be your righteousness if you obeyed the whole of the law. But there must be a provision for us lawbreakers to be righteous other than this or we are all doomed. Second thought: we are all doomed. Just kidding! The keeping of the law actually IS our righteousness! Jesus kept it, didn’t he? He transfers that “keeping of the law righteousness” to us as we trust in him for salvation! The New Testament talks much about this.

      You wrote:

      What is scripture according to Paul or any other followers during that time? I would assume that they did not have the completed (today’s version) new testament.

      Then what law should we follow? And why are we against the teachings found in the “Scriptures”?

      My Response:

      The Bible that Jesus and the apostles read was the Tanach: the Torah, Prophets, and writings. But interpreting it was something that Jesus and the apostles also did. We properly understand the Tanach by their teachings.

      Jesus says that the whole of the Tanach was about him:

      “You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.” (John 5:39-40)

      Are we consistently coming to him to have life?

      What law should we follow? The law of love.

      God help us if we are against any teachings of Scripture! They are ALL good and intended to bring us into relationship (eternal life) with God.

      You wrote:

      And how can we claim to follow “Christ” and do nothing that he did?

      Response:

      We do do… lol. sorry. We do do what Christ did. We trust! Jesus modeled a life of trust in his Father. We are to trust Jesus and the Father as he modeled. Righteousness comes by this trust (by faith) through His grace (unmerited, undeserved committed agape love of God for you.)

      You wrote:

      And the most puzzling statement is this “Matthew 5: 17-20 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.”

      Response:

      Absolutely! The law is good and will not fail or fall. No one guilty will be excused, they will however be redeemed and justified. Yes, your righteousness must exceed your pastor or mother Theresa, or whoever the most godly saint you can think of. It must exceed all the righteousness of all the righteous people who ever lived! It must be Christ’s righteousness.

      As for practicing and teaching down to the least of these commands, does this include dietary laws? What about the sacrifices? Jesus answers both of these, by declaring all foods clean a few times and being the fulfillment of the sacrificial system by being the sacrifice himself.

      You wrote:

      And then in Isaiah 56 (the whole chapter) For this is what the Lord says:

      “To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant—to them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that will endure forever.
      And foreigners who bind themselves to the Lord to minister to him, to love the name of the Lord,
      and to be his servants, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant—these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations.”

      Response:

      Keeping the Sabbath. There is so much beauty to this!!! This means to cease your striving and enter the the rest that Jesus has provided for you.

      Hebrews 4
      New International Version (NIV)
      A Sabbath-Rest for the People of God

      4 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed.[a] 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,

      “So I declared on oath in my anger,
      ‘They shall never enter my rest.’”[b]
      And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.”[c] 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”

      6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:

      “Today, if you hear his voice,
      do not harden your hearts.”[d]
      8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,[e] just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

      12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

      Jesus is our Sabbath rest! Relax! Cease your striving and all your worries! Your salvation does not depend on you. It depends on Christ who has said, “It is finished.” From start to finish it is done! Hallelujah! We now get to enter into that rest and enjoy sweet fellowship with God not by our own merits or obedience but by Christ’s.

      To trust and rest in Jesus and his Grace is actually the narrow way of life that not many will find. Everyone seems to want to earn their way. Many well intentioned legalistic religious people are actually going down the broad way of destruction. Especially those who try to earn salvation by keeping the law. paul writes they have fallen from grace.

      You wrote:

      Jeremiah only mentions the new coveant to the isrealites and to Judah ;Jeremiah 31:31-34 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”

      Response:

      Lovely Scripture. I am so glad that a pure blooded Gentile such as myself gets in on such a wonderful covenant and that God would even designate such a pure blooded Israelite who had such a firm grasp of all the Tanach to be the apostle to the Gentiles. God forgives my wickedness and remembers my sin no more!

      You wrote:

      And here is what Peter had to say about Paul;

      2nd Peter 3:16 “He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.”

      And I could go on and on and on, but those are some points.

      Response:

      Unfortunately, and though it pains me to think this about another human being, I believe Jim Staley to be one who is ignorant and unstable who distorts the Word of God, penned by my apostle.

      • Will

        Daniel,
        I am very impressed with your thoughts and your writing. Your reference to the Tanach shows you have clearly done some research into the Hebrew roots of your faith….wonderful! I realize I have posted many comments and I sincerely hope that none of them are taken to be attacks on your or any of the others. My desire is only to share my beliefs and educate people on what Messianics truly believe. And just to reiterate I have never read or even heard the teachings of this Jim Staley so please don’t associate me with him and judge my arguments on their own merits and not on whatever biases you may have towards Staley. I to am on your side. Now to my rebuttal. In your response to Sincy on Deuteronomy you make the point that Jesus kept the Law perfectly and has now become our righteousness. Beautifully put and 100% accurate. My question for you though is how does this affect our relationship to the Law? Yes Jesus kept the Law perfectly so does that mean we don’t have to worry about keeping the Law at all? Jesus didn’t steal so it’s okay if we do? Jesus didn’t bear false witness so now we lie through our teeth? Okay clearly that is absurd and I’m not suggesting that is what you believe but what then do you believe. Jesus imparted His righteousness to me so does that mean that I am now no longer capable of sinning. On the contrary, I struggle continuously with sin. But what is sin? 1 John 3:4 Sin is transgression of the Law. No law no sin. Since there is sin then there must still be an active Law. Later on though you ask Sincy if this means that the Kosher laws and festivals are still in effect. The law is a unified whole. James said if you transgress even the smallest part of the law then you have violated the while thing. You said that Jesus declared all foods clean. I believe you are referencing Mark 7:19 (if that is not it I apologize but I know it is in Mark). Interestingly, most Bibles, at least the good ones, have that verse in Italics…do you know why? Because that verse is not found in the oldest of manuscripts specifically it is not found in the. Textus Receptus. But let’s suppose for a second that Jesus did declare all foods clean is he really saying that the kosher laws have been done away with? First, no Jew would consider animals forbidden by Law to be food so the Hebrew mind would never have jumped to the conclusion that all foods were now clean to mean that kosher laws had been absolved. Second, what is actually being discussed in this chapter? The Pharisees come to Jesus and criticize him because is disciples are violating the teachings of the elders by eating with unwashed hands. Notice the key verse in there. They are accusing the disciples of Jesus of OT breaking the Torah, or G-ds Law, but breaking the oral Torah. For this particular group of Pharisees failing to keep ritually clean was on par with something abominable like eating a pig. But this is where Jesus steps in and tells them that their oral law does not come before the teachings of G-d and furthermore they do not have the authority to set laws that are on equal footing with G-ds own. He and he alone had final say on what was and was not permissible. So Jesus upheld the Torah and out the Oral Torah in its proper place. Much of Jesus teaching on the law is him either clarifying how to properly interpret the written Torah or putting the Oral Law in its appropriate place. I contend that no where did Jesus ever do away with any part of the Torah, which brings me to my third and final point. Daniel consider for a moment what you are proposing. I believe that you believe that our Heavenly Father is the same yesterday, today and forever. Which means we believe that he has a nun hanging standard of righteousness, what he declares unholy to one generation will be unholy for all subsequent generations. So how can G-d say eating animals like pigs is an abomination and then several generations turn around and say, ” On second thought who doesn’t like bacon, my bad it’s clean now,”. The theological implications of what you are suggesting is mind numbing and not something that I think you have given serious consideration. Imagine that the issue was adultery instead of kosher. Can you imagine if Jesus showed up in our churches today and said, ” man you have really blown this adultery thing out of control. All you need to do is love one another therefore love whoever you want whenever you want. Thus he declared all marriages annulled.” Like I said mind numbing. One last thing I would be very interested to see the scripture that says that in Jesus we have filled the sabbath requirement.

    • You wrote:

      Daniel your article is thought provoking, and their are questions that I need answers to on this journey be it the keeping the law or not keeping the law. In deut 30:11-20 it reads “Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

      See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

      But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

      This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

      And what is wrong with keeping the law, if you desire too? We keep the law of the church (Sabbath (Sunday), and Feast (Christmas, Easter). The reason I say it is the law of the church, is that I haven’t been given the evidence the it exited in the Scriptures. If I have pride (which I do), then why won’t anyone answer my questions from a scripture and or historical background. I know whats been done before (Was involved in the church board, sunday school teacher, youth leader) I just want answers that isn’t an opinion. I can use Pauls writings to be for the law or I can use it against the law.

      Is the Paul the new messiah, that he can change scriptures and the old invaild?

      Just a lot of questions, sorry.

      Response:

      Good questions. Don’t be sorry. I know Paul referenced this very Scripture in Romans 10:

      Romans 10
      New International Version (NIV)
      10 Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

      5 Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.”[a] 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’”[b] (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’”[c] (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”[d] that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

      Paul rightly interprets this passage in Deuteronomy 30 to be about faith (vs 6). True salvation was always by faith. The old covenant was intended to press them into faith. but people are stubborn and their pride unwilling to submit to God’s righteousness (his way of making them right). They, by and large, ignored this message of faith in this passage and saw it through law eyes.

      • But isn’t faith as per James our works, James 2:17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. As an example, I have been in the martial arts for decades (literally) and Have met alot of people. Most people say that martial arts is a way of life for them, but there isn’t evidence of it as per the teachings in their life. Or as a former competive fighter, I had to train hard, watch my diet (funny thing is that my diet was pretty much on par with the dietary laws in the old testament), and do all the right things (sleep, eat, and rest) if I didn’t do it well it would have been bad.

        So if by faith, then I trust that Christ made all foods clean. The qestion then is what is food? By faith the sabbath can be any day we want it to, which would void the 4th commandment. That in itself now no longer applies accord to some opinions. So we follow Christ what Christ said in Matthew 5:17-20? Or do we listen to John who states that we should love one another or maybe 1 John 5 (Note 1John 5:2-5)
        1Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

        6This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8thea Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

        13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

        16If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

        18We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them. 19We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. 20We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

        21Dear children, keep yourselves from idols.

        I’m not a very emotional person, but I do like my facts and I generally let the facts speak for itself. This the way that I reason with myself in my walk with Christ. I try to keep the law and the brothers and sisters in Christ around me attack me saying it is legalistic, and christ came to abolish the law (which he never said according to Matthew) and that I am following a false teachings. I never ask anyone to keep the law in any way shape or form, I try to keep it to myself but some how word gets out and everyone calls you all sorts of names. WHY? Do I not have the right to do as I feel or being lead by the spirit to honour my King and Saviour? i’m an old country asian and honouring someone for what they have done is the least I can do, if Christ obeyed his father’s command then I will try to do like so. If I fail then I fail but I at less tried. AS for being for the “Hebrew Movement” I think they may have gone to far, but that is for the Father to decide, who am I to decide what is right and what is wrong for that individual. What I am saying is that faith is the action of my obidence to what Christ has done for me. Isn’t Paul a person in history that was consider a genius during his time? But I always wonder what gave Paul the right to say that God’s laws has been abolished?

        As for dietary laws, as far as I know according to the Old testaments, the Israelites (including the Judah) were given instructions about what kind of food to eat. During my time in the martial arts field and as a competive athelet now a personal trainer part time. Diet is very important to the over all well being of the persons, and food has alot to do with how we feel and do. It is absolutely amazing how parasites affect your overall health and performance in all aspects of your life. I never understood why God had such a hatred for people who consume pig. But when you actually do research (not the prok industry version) based upon independent studies, you usually hear alot of bad things include shellfish. The thought of parasites affecting my overall health, has definitely kept me off alot of these things.

        I see alot of wisdom in the Old testament, and revealation in the new testament. But I want to say thank-you for taking the time and effort to have this discussion. For this is how we should act with one another to discuss the word (Scriptures) and be humble enough to hear each other out. We don’t have to agree but we can definitley show love. It has been wonderful and enlighting. Being a skeptic I need more evidence from either said, but I will try to keep the law the best way I know how despite the fact that many believers be against me.

        Love and blessings to your journey. (I hope that after ending this discussion that we will honour one another without biting words or spirit)

      • Will

        Daniel just because some in the OT attempted to earn their salvation by keeping the law does not mean that was G-ds original intention. As you noted, salvation has always been by grace. So if salvation is by grace in the OT and G-d expected them to keep the Law (not for the purposes of salvation) then why would we who are also saved by grace be excused from the Law? The one and only difference between us and them is the object of their faith was an actual lamb whereas the object of our faith is the Lamb of G-d.

  6. Christiana Horn

    Great article, Daniel! Thanks for your heart and the authenticity/truth seeking of your study. The comments are great, too, except for Sincy, who is obviously a “Hebrew Roots” law-keeper. Good luck with that, Sincy.

    • That is a little hurtful. Then I guess I better follow Paul and his writings. Christiana please avoid placing labels on someone, before you know them. And if I am wrong in any of my statements, please back it up with scriptures. And answer the questions “What scripture is Paul and the followers of Christ used?”

  7. Christiana Horn

    Sincy, you are absolutely right. I apologize. My only defense is that the hallmark of the “Hebrew Roots” guys is redefining Greek words that have been clearly defined for many, many generations by educated, honest, real Greek/Biblical scholars. I reacted to your immediately jumping to “definitions.” You see, I have a lot of experience with this — even with people who are related to me. They have rejected good Biblical scholarship in order to reinterpret the very Scriptures that make it clear that the law was fulfilled by Christ, and is therefore set aside. I would reference Hebrews 8:13, which says,”By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.” I would also state what my husband did with a self-deceiving Hebrew roots person: “When you can tell me that obsolete doesn’t mean obsolete, we’ll talk.”

    Sorry I jumped and snarked.
    Christiana

    • Will

      Christiana,
      First kudos to you for having the maturity to recognize a wrong and apologize for it. As for the rest of your assertion that there is some kind of agreement between scholars nothing could be farther from the truth, hence the outpouring of so many different Bibles. For example some scholars take issue with the word new in Hebrews 8:13. There are two words for new in the Greek Neos (like the Matrix) and Kainos. Neos refers to that which has never previously existed but Kainos refers to a refreshment or renewal of something already in existence. Since Kainos is the word that is used the better English word would be the renewed covenant. Furthermore the word you translate as obsolete is palaioo (think I spelled that right, it is late here) and while it can in some cases mean obsolete, the better translation would be to make something old, something that is aging and on the verge of vanishing. This implies that it is in fact still with us but in a far different form. There are two conclusions that we can reach. First, this book (Hebrews) is about the sacrificial system and to a lesser extent the system of the priesthood, both of which were transformed, not done away, but transformed with Christ’s death and resurrection. Jesus becomes both the sacrifice and the High Priest thus abolishing the older system and enacting the new and with it a renewed covenant. This can also be seen as a possible foreshadowing by Paul of the coming destruction of the temple that would make the priesthood and the sacrifices obsolete. The Mosaic covenant though is declared by G-d to be eternal not temporal so I’m wondering how that meshes with your theology? And the Mosaic covenant gave us the Law such as do. It steal, lie, murder. Do you believe those commandments are done away with?

  8. I have collected some of my blogs and other appropriate teachings at: http://www.hebrewrootsmovement.wordpress.com – stop by, subscribe and interact!

  9. Daniel, words can’t express how grateful I am to you for your work here. I was searching online for a transcript of Identity Crisis so that I could diligently study it and pull it apart to its bones, ie just being a Berean :), but you have done it all for me and then some! Oh that many would be set free by this article of yours, that are in bondage and don’t need to be! The motive of their hearts, I’m sure, is to be more pleasing to God and honour Him more, but that desire can only be fulfilled by loving Jesus and obeying His words…..not by returning to an old and superseded yoke of burden, designed to point us to the One who fulfills all things. I have many friends falling into this and it is distressing to watch their joy disappear like evaporating water….and they become dry and serious….lacking in the fruit of joy and love in the Spirit, and doubting everyone’s salvation who does not adhere. Love to you brother.

  10. lovingtheTorah

    If we follow the scripture to judge a tree by its fruits, then that settles it regarding this tree. I love the Torah, and I love the feasts. In fact, I left Babylon’s religions after studying ancient civilizations and finding the same Tamuz and Isis celebrations in the church. But, I have also found that there is no fruit of love or kindness in this tree that you analyze. So, that fruit alone speaks for it. I would rather be around those who don’t celebrate the feasts or dietary laws but have LOVE than those who preach the law but have no LOVE. Where God’s spirit is, there is love.

    • Thanks for your comment. I am not analyzing a mans fruit but the veracity of his claims. “Love rejoices in the truth”.

      “There is only one who is good,” Jesus said. God alone and only He is Love.

  11. Excellent, Daniel. You’re an insightful young man.

    It’s a messy process, this One New Man thing that God has intended.
    Although I have heard of it, my first touch on this Messianic branch of justification, on the Jewish/Gentile blend in Jim Staley’s sermon, proved grieving to my spirit. I questioned the idea of it, even asking the Lord if I have missed something. I began to write down all of Jim Staley’s references to follow his reasoning but until a friend sent me your link, I did not have the stamina to break down his maze of reasoning to analyze it in the way that you so graciously captured.

    Thank you for moving in God’s gift in you.

    • Thanks! Someone from my family got into it and sent me Jim Stanleys link to “Identity Crisis”. This blog post was a labor of love for them and for everyone else who has been led astray into this. I think another one of the sad things that happens to people persuaded by Jim Staley is that they become a culture unto themselves, unable to connect and relate the Gospel to the culture around them – of course this happens so often in many churches across America and the world I suppose.

      We are meant to be in the world but not of it, salt and light to a dark world. there are still lost ones to be found and getting befuddled into this HRM nonsense is doing great harm to Jesus rescue operation.

    • Will

      Perhaps you should read other Messianics before we judge the theology of the whole. This is like judging all of. Hark staining after reading Joel Osteen. Consider Tim Hegg, a former southern baptist minister now Messianic. His articles can be found at torahresource.org

  12. Brigitte

    I really have enjoyed reading everyone’s thoughts on the scriptures. Daniel, it appears you have a very humble, loving heart towards our King which is wonderful to see! I have listened to Jim Staley and taken the things he has said and restudied and very deeply sought the Holy Spirit for guidance. One thing I have learned is what a heavy responsibility a teacher has on him. A person better know for sure what they are teaching before they teach it. Huge responsibility!!!

    I don’t know much about Mr. Staley but I can tell you that the Holy Spirit was revealing things to me that line up with a great deal of his teachings. I’m one that believes the only way to the Father is through Jesus and it is all about grace and faith!!! End of story- no other way to heaven but that! However, when it is stated that the law will be written on our hearts and to love Him and our neighbors, well, in my experience, if you follow that you follow his commandments. ALL of them. When you love someone you want to be pleasing to them. I view it to my relationship with my earthly dad. He loves me unconditionally and I love him. Because I love him, I delight in pleasing him. I fail at it many times but he forgives and our relationship continues to get closer and stronger all the time. I know I don’t need to follow the commandments to be saved but I desire to do my best to obey them as I believe it pleases my heavenly father. Because I love Him, I will do my best to follow what he has written on my heart and guess what, what he has written is many of the OT commandants. Not the oral Jewish law but His commands and guidelines for my life.

    As far as the “Hebrew Movement” goes, well any movement I stay away from. I stick with the movement of Jesus, that’s all I need or want! In regards to the feast, I have found the study on this very interesting. I’m 48 years old and spent my whole life celebrating Christmas and Easter. Then I discover that my King has feast in his word that bring great blessing and joy into our lives. You see, I believe Satan has a counterfeit for everything that God has that is good. In my humble opinion Christmas and Easter are two of those counterfeits. My family gave them up two years ago and started exploring the feasts. I have to tell you, they brought such peace and joy to us it was nothing like Christmas or Easter.

    I like what you say about dig for yourself. You are right. People need to stop listening to a man and listen to the greatest teacher ever. I think it is very beneficial to study the word and history at the same time. It is clear that people are very split on the whole law issue but I think it is because it gets so mistaken with salvation. People just need to relax, rest and trust! If you love Him like he commands, I guarantee you will automatically try to follow ALL of his laws and it will not feel burdensome at all.

    Blessings,

    • I must admit, I was struck by a recent read through Matthew 5-7 (Sermon on the Mount) that Jesus actually expects his listeners to take him seriously and obey or face dire dire consequences. His law of love he lays out is fully intended and expected to be fleshed out in our lives.

      Again and again thru the New Testament Paul writes and warns us not to be deceived, those who practice such and such will not inherit the kingdom of God. Most every christian I know resists this teaching and belittles it. Pastors I know belittle it.

      The fact is Jesus set the bar higher than anyone had ever set it. He reveals the heart of the law (love) and expects everyone to obey. Like really… not just agree with it and go and and make your mistakes and figure your covered.

      He set the bar Holy Spirit high. He, and the rest of the new testament authors, lay out the Christian life as being filled with the Holy Spirit, led by the Holy Spirit. There is no other Christian life besides this. This is the only Christian life.

      If you don’t have the Holy Spirit, you don’t belong to God, you’re not “saved”.

      just a few thoughts in response.

      Daniel

      ps. I Really don’t think God is uptight about Christmas and Easter… seems like a “looking for the devil under every rock” kind of thinking.

  13. Moises Ortega

    Me encantó el encabezado de esta publicación …. yo hace poco reflexionaba acerca de lo que creemos y puse como ejemplo esta pelicula …”El Origen”

    El problema que tenemos hoy día en la cristiandad es una cuestión de ideas …. nos dijeron que Ley y Antiguo Pacto son sinonimos, y eso es una GRAN MENTIRA, pero como toda gran mentira, pasados los años de tanto decirla termina siendo creída como una VERDAD.

    Devuelve el sentido a al concepto Pacto y verás que aquello que llaman “LEY” es inclusiva para ambos Pactos y por lo tanto, el Nuevo Pacto la incluye y nunca ha quedado relegada.

    La mentira ingresó a nuestras mentes como una idea, se instaló en nuestros cerebros y hoy día es difícil luchar contra los paradigmas que consideramos verdaderos por toda nuestra vida.

    • Thanks Moises for your thoughts. I translated them via a google translator and here they are in English for anyone interested:

      “I loved the header of this publication …. I recently reflected on what we believe and put as an example this movie … “Inception”

      The problem we have today in Christianity is a matter of ideas …. told us that Old Covenant Law and are synonymous, and that’s a BIG LIE, but like all big lie, over the years of both say it ends up being believed as a truth.

      Returns the meaning to the concept Covenant and see that what they call “LAW” is inclusive for both Covenants and therefore, the New Covenant includes it and has never been relegated.

      The lie entered our minds as an idea, was installed in our brains, and today is hard to fight the paradigms we consider true throughout our lives.”

      Not sure how well google translated but it is indeed hard to fight the paradigms we consider true throughout our lives.

      A good reminder to check in with the source (God and his word) to sort out truth because it is truth that saves us.

      • Ranse

        I do need to respond to the use of a sound bite from Colossians. I too find myself in disagreement with Jim Staley in many ways; however, when reading Colossians 2 we need to understand that the “law” meant more than just the Torah to the Jews of Paul’s day. How one looked at the law was determined by the sect you belonged to. The Pharisees had a myriad of added traditions that, according to Jesus, weakened the law. Paul was acutely aware of this fact. This is the catalyst for the following statement.

        Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
        Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
        Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
        In tthis passage we see that Paul refers to the humility brought on principalities etc. by Jesus. It needs to be noted that it was the religious leaders that he embarrassed because of their false traditions..

        In this passage, as in most of Paul’s writings; he is dealing with the continual problem of the imposition of traditions outside of Torah being laid on the people. Just as the Pharisees tried to do in Acts 15. It wasn’t whether or not they kept the festivals etc. that was the question. It was how they kept them. Keeping the law of God is not a salvation issue; Salvation and yielding to the power of our risen Lord is the means to walk in Torah effortlessly. That is true freedom – from sin as defined in 1 John 4:3
        Ranse
        Ranseweatherford@yahoo.com

  14. Hi Daniel,

    Great job at dealing with the issues surrounding Jim Staley’s ‘Identity Crisis’ video.

    A relative also sent me ‘Identity Crisis’ about a year ago, and being very familiar with Jim Staley’s teaching on the Ephraimite/Two House doctrine, like you, I sent a long email back to them explaining where and why I disagreed with what he was teaching.

    The following link uses that email as a framework, but I’ve included several other of Jim Staley’s teachings to give a more complete picture of what he teaches, his style of leadership, and an examination of his testimony of how Passion For Truth Ministries started (VERY Joseph Smith-ish!)

    Here’s the link: http://joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com/gateways-into-the-hebrew-roots-movement-an-examination-of-identity-crisis-and-related-teachings-of-jim-staley/

    I pray that it will be a resource for folks to sort out the errors in the Hebrew Roots Movement in general and in Jim Staley’s Passion For Truth Ministries, specifically.

    Grace and peace to you,
    -JGIG

  15. Could Hebrew Roots Movement be a cult based on this definition?

    cult
    1.
    a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
    b. The followers of such a religion or sect. (from: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cult)

    • Sheila

      No, Hebrew roots movement is not a cult.
      I am from Asia and migrated here in the States since 1997.
      Has been obeying the Sabbath of the Lord for the last 6 yrs. the Feast days for the last 5 yrs, and dietary laws of God for the last 3 yrs, not because I need to be saved but because I am saved through the grace of Yeshua and I want to please Him. He says, “if you love me, obey my commandments.”
      When my family started obeying these commands it was not because we have heard someone preached it and got influenced. We had been confessing Christians for a long time but were not obedient to God. In 2007 we committed ourselves to the Lordship of Yeshua and in obeying his commands. We decided that with the Lords help we will study His word and if there is a command He wants us to do we will obey. Our hearts were willing to go wherever God would take us in our walk with Him.
      We have not been to any church since 2008 because we cannot find a place or group of people that believes and practices in the entirety of the bible. We as a family gather every Shabbat and worship God. We had no idea that there are a lot of people like us that God’s Spirit has been poured to those who earnestly seek Him. We only heard about Jim Staley in the last two weeks and his teachings.
      We have been doing what they are doing before we found out about “Hebrew Movement.” Did not even know that anybody that obeys the commandment and practices are labeled “Hebrew Roots Movement.”

      • Sheila, I sincerely wonder if you even read this blog post. Jim Staley has been exposed as a false teacher. The anti-freedom Hebrew roots movement has been exposed.

        The Scriptures I highlight in this blog represent just a small portion of everything Paul fought so hard for in all his writings. His life work was to fight for the purity of the Gospel… and then someone like Jim Staley comes along and tries to undo his work by redefining a few terms. He is perverting the truth of how people see Scripture.

        Paul withstood Peter (Cephas) to his face publicly and then wrote even more publicly when the truth of the Gospel was threatened:

        Paul Opposes Cephas (Galatians 2)

        11 When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

        14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

        15 “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

        17 “But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker.

        19 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

      • Christiana Horn

        Thank you, Daniel, for this response. I had considered responding, but hadn’t had time to formulate a response. As someone who has been around Jim Staley and many people who he has led astray, I imagine this commenter had begun law-keeping more or less independently, and finding Jim S. on the internet, was swayed by his demagoguery. Please know, sweet commenter, that this man is not who he says he is, and his teaching is designed to confuse and control. Daniel is right — plainly translated and easily understood Scripture must be redefined before the Hebrew Roots message begins to sound “reasonable.”

  16. Marilyn Lovett

    What can I say, son! I am so impressed with your depth and grace, and know God has been answering my prayers for your spiritual growth for the last 36 years as your mom. I am blessed to call you son! Since this is the first time I have seen this post since you and Steve bought me this tablet a couple of months ago, it shall be a joy in my old age to observe you impact this generation. Awesome son.

  17. Sheila

    I respect both of your responses and all I can remember right now is that some of us are given one talent and some five or ten. As I have stated, before we found out about Jim Staley , we have been doing them already for it is our reponse to the great love of Christ over us to obey all His laws and commandments including feasts and dietary laws etc without anyone telling us to do so. We are absolutely not doing them to gain salvation or justification but out of love to the God who gave us life in His son Yeshuah or Jesus Christ. We have for so many years been trying to live out the Christian way as preached by pastors across evangelical or protestant denominations including Christmas, Easter attend Sunday service but always felt impure, unholy, unrighteous everytime we read the gospel because sin was all over the place in our lives. But when God transformed our lives by His Spirit, that day of transformation has truly begun so that we are no longer living in sin. The sins that we struggled to get rid off but could not despite mulitple times of repentance etc.,God finally took the power of it in us that we have since left all of them or walked away from them (idolatry, adultery, immorality, lies, greed, hate, lust of flesh, lust of eyes, pride in life, etc) Our willingness to obey His Laws or commands are our response to His great love, forgiveness and deliverance. And since He delivered us from the sins we were struggling, we could trust Him to cause us to obey Him fully and completely. They are on the contrary not burdensome but in fact a delight… something we look forward to doing every single time. You see i understand the fear of most christians about the laws of God and what Paul has said that they themselves could not follow. But when God does a miracle in your life, then you will understand that holiness, purity, being spotless, blameless and even perfection will be a product that He Himself will do in one’s life. Did not the Hebrew writer declared that with one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those He made holy? Now that we live in obedience to His Laws and commandments, there is no fear but pure love for Him and for men. Our children looks forward to all the Sabbaths!This is not to gain His love but to honor Him right from our own home.
    Faith in Jesus is the salvation toward God both from the penalties of sin and the power of sin in this sinful flesh so we become pleasing to the Father both at present moment and everyday life. But this faith has to show evidence because Paul, John the Baptist and James have all said that our repentance must show the evidence and that evidence is not living in sin which is the breaking of the law. Faith without works is dead. We are not called to try obeying God and be better people bacause anyone can try and be better. No we are called to be holy, righteous, blameless, spotless and even perfect. Elders and bishops, as required by the apostle must be a husband to one wife, have godly children and be blameless. Paul declared that he himself lived a holy and blameless life among his followers. God said that He will show His holiness by His righteousness and His righteousness is about obedience to His laws, commands, decrees. How can we say that we have the righteousness of God since we have Christ in us and yet break the very laws He commands. Righteousness is not a theme or an abstract idea but a life obedient to the laws and commands of God. How can we believe in the powerful God and yet not believe that He can enable man who seeks to please and obey Him obey Him fully and completely. The jews relied on the laws. The contemporary christians did away with the laws. Both are wrong. Those who rely on obeying the laws will never be righteous enough before God for human effort proves nothing. The christians who believed that we can choose which law or command we can obey because they believe they have the freeedom to do so in Christ’s name will run into trouble along with those five of the seven churches whom God has something against. We are not to add or subtract from His word. The written code and regulations nailed on the cross are our violations of the laws with their corresponding punishment. The law as tutor toward God is not separated from Christ the Lawgiver but points to our need of Him to cleanse us from the things that we transgress or violate and our need of His grace both as unmerited favor and an empowering to say no to ungodliness so that when we truly have the Spirit of God we will long to please Him and obey His laws and commands. The flesh does not submit to God’s laws nor can it do so because it is powerless. Jesus who is the end of the law means we need Him so that not only that we are forgiven of our known sins when we confess them but if we are willing will enable us to obey Him. The law by itself has not made anyone perfect otherwise Christ’s death is of no value. If we can gain righteousness by our sheer effort to obey His laws then again His death is of no value. James said that faith alone without works is dead. Faith alone in Christ is our salvation and justification and nothing else but it must show in our deeds. If we still live in sin violating His laws and commands then we do not have the light or are in darkness still. If We have the Spirit of God then we will seek His kingdom and all His righteousness irrespective of the customs of todays church just as Paul and Christ had said against the customs of the jews then who added to the old testament. Todays church subtracts from the word of God. Abraham was declared righteous because of his faith which he showed by his obedience to God’s laws, commands and decrees. So faith in Christ without the obedience to His commandments and His Laws is dead. The Book of Revelation revealed who the true believers are: those who have the testimony of Jesus and hold on to His commandments. What is the testimony of Jesus… This is the work of God in a person’s life transforming them to be true sons of God and not of the devil because sons of God do what the Father says but the sons of the devil while they believe God does not
    do what the Father commands but what the devil suggests. The devil will always say… Did God really say that?
    The shadow of the things to come is not separate from where the shadow comes from but points us to Christ who Himself being God demonstrated a life of obedience to the laws and commands He made not that the laws and commands are separate from Him. Things to come should therefore make us pause because in the new earth and heaven that He will make from one new moon to the other from one sabbath to another all men will bow down before Him. Anyone who does not go to this new Jerusalem on the Feast of Tabernacles God’s displeasure will rest on Him. How can we say then that we could observe the Sabbath or not, we could celebrate the feasts or not when Jesus Himself declared them in the new earth and heavens He will make. Out of Zion His law will go out, He will teach us His ways, they will beat their swords into plowshares and spears into prunning hooks, there will be no more wars on that day and yet do we dare say today that God did away with His laws. He did not spare the fallen angels, He did not spare the jews, but now God will spare christians because we have Jesus Christ as our righteousness even if we deny Him by denying to obey His laws.
    The laws and prophets hang on these two great commandments: love God and your neighbors. They are attached together just as faith and works or repentance and evidence, grace and holy living.
    Sabbath is such a great controversy just as the law and yet we made our own version of sabbath to be Sunday and still working and doing our pleasures. Our version of the law to be lawless. Our version of the Fear of the Lord as liberty to do as we please.

    Paul’s teaching is hard to most but not to those who are willing, humble, contrite, seeking and obedient through the empowering of the Spirit of God by His true grace as declared in 1 Peter and not by false grace as some had used in Jude’s time so it is now in our present age.

    I agree with Jim Staley’s teaching on law and commandments not because we follow him but because of the evidence in our lives of what God has done not any longer just Bible knowledge but understanding through obedience as we live out the scripture from both old and new alike. God had already taught us these as there are more are taught by God Himself just as He said that in the last days He will write the laws in their minds and put them in their hearts. We heard of his teachings on identity crisis but much of what you said or qouted him is not what he said. We clearly have a different understanding for just on the premises on law, grace, faith and commandments that it is not valuable to discuss about what he asserts in identity crisis.

    May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob through His son Yeshua ha Mashiach or JesusChrist teach us all things especially above all to love Him with all our hearts, soul, mind and body and to love our neighbors just as we love ourselves.

    • Brigitte

      Sheila, I could have not said it better myself. It is truly heart breaking to me that people so misunderstand what is going on. We feel like you! The Holy Spirit is the one who has taught us and led us into these revelations- not any man!! We have more peace and freedom in Him then we ever knew was possible. People see it as legalism and bondage, which I must admit, back in the days when we attended the institution (church) we would have seen it the same way. So we just cling tight to the commandment of love and keep loving and praying for those who persecute us. Which ,by the way, doesn’t come from the unsaved or those truly free in Yeshua but from those who attend the churches and are caught up in the doctrines of man, these are the ones who have persecuted our walk with great judgment and very little love. Father has shown us, that to truly serve Him, we will be persecuted. So praise Yah and much peace on your journey. Shalom Brigitte

    • Cel

      Couldn’t agree with you more, Sheila and Brigitte!! We love honoring Yahweh by following His teachings/commands throughout His entire Word! We believe in the whole BIBLE and that He is the same yesterday, today, and forever! Never changing! Yeshua is the only way to salvation who came to fulfill the Law, and Jim Staley has stated this many times over, clarifying that no law keeping will ever save you, but if the motive of your heart, or condition of your heart, is to be pleasing and honoring to Yahweh, then He accepts your gifts of obedience and delights in them! It really sounds like there has been a lot of assuming going on, rather than searching Jim’s exact words. I have never heard him state any of the beliefs that you are putting in his mouth and would be very careful to put words and “half-truths” in his mouth, discrediting someone who clearly is seeking the King with all of his heart. There are just as many “Hebrew Roots” denominations as there are evangelical or western Christianity sects and I would be very careful NOT to group them all into one as there are many different beliefs in each, which separates them completely from each other. One cannot group Catholics, Baptists, and Assemblies of God together and call them all the same, for they are quite the contrary! They are not all Christ followers, even though people group them as such. So no, not all Christian Roots teachings or Teachers are wrong, bad, or misleading, but yes, some can be. Satan will always try to destroy those who are really pleasing to Yahweh our Father, and Jim certainly falls into that category, so it does not surprise me to hear his words twisted and attacked. I am a Truth seeker and I am aware that even anointed Teachers can sometimes get things wrong, as I’m sure Jim has made plenty of mistakes in his past, but it all comes back to studying the Word against everything…and not from an American or Western culture standpoint, but from the original context of the Hebrew authors who knew and understood the Hebrew ways and culture. I want to know the roots of my faith and where they really come from. The real Yeshua Messiah and Elohim. Not this watered down, feel-good, tradition of man, lawlessness that is taught in most American institutions. It never sat right within our spirits and we always knew there was something missing…there is so much more! More joy, more faith, more obedience, more love, more relationship with our Father!

      As far as following the entire Word of God (with grace and by the Spirit), I want to be the Bride who dwells inside the gates with my Savior The Messiah! I do not want to be saved only to live outside the gates for eternity.

      I love that Daniel is open to comments and to others thoughts on the matter! He shows true humility in that aspect. I respect him for having his own opinions and pray that Yahweh would continue to reveal Himself to all of us and open our eyes to His Truth more and more every day. We are all seeking after the same thing, His heart. To each a measure of faith is given!

      • Brigitte

        Cel,

        I’m so blessed when people respond on this site that are on the same journey! Thank you for sharing. It is really encouraging and confirming. I have to say however, at this point I’m beyond needing confirmation anymore. This is so deep in my spirit that no one could convince me otherwise. I did mainstream watered down Christianity for 30 + years. I have never expereinced what I have since I have been following what He has written on my heart and learning the whole bible. When we started being true Sabbath keepers ( not the Sunday morning Lords Day of western Christianity, which actually came from the Roman Catholic Church) it started to change our whole walk with Yeshua. Sadly, people just don’t get it. What a shame and loss for them.

        Shalom,
        Brigitte

  18. Brigitte

    Sheila, I forgot this, we too believe in the WHOLE BIBLE!! Man is the one who put the New Testament page in the middle of the book that separated out the two books. The bible is meant to be read and studied from the first page to the last. What I have found is many people take out of the Old Testament what suits them and they disregard the rest. What we have found is if you read and study the entire bible, everything fits together like hand in glove. The old ties in with the new and they both tie in with the Book of Revelation. Our God is so wonderful and so cleaver.

    As far as Jim Staley goes or any man goes, all things must be lined up with the word and filtered through the Holy Spirit. Not one man is perfect nor does any one man truly know ALL truth. If anyone thinks they have all the answers, watch out. If we love God and Jesus and are truly desperate to be in relationship with them and die to our own selfish flesh, then “seek and you shall find”

    I refuse to argue with other men on issues of doctrine, Jesus did not want that. If we are in sin, then yes, I would like that to be told to me. If we are not in sin, and people just want to debate scriptures, I’m not interested. Shalom

  19. Sheila and Brigitte, You win this round. I am outnumbered, and your comment posts are longer. Would you do me a favor and be helpful. Keep your comments related to this blog post. Can you please bring to my awareness of anything I have said in this blog that is wrong. I’d be happy to correct it if it is. Thank you.

    • Brigitte

      Daniel, your fruit is sweet my friend. It is not about winning and I don’t wish to bring correction to you. Only the Holy Spirit can truly lead us and guide us. I feel as though my comments were related to this blog. Was it not about law or no law?? Were they not about coming against brothers and sisters who wish to worship our King in a way that is foreign to man in these times? Perhaps I misunderstand?? If so, my deepest apologies!!

      As far as you being wrong, that is not for me to decide. That is for our King to decide. I can’t say I’m right and you are wrong. All I can say is how I feel in my heart towards my Father in heaven. I’m so in awe of what he has done on the cross for me. How he has given me grace and mercy and I don’t deserve it. How he has given me the gift of eternal life and love abundantly, He is so wonderful and so beyond our comprehension. I just want to shout from the roof tops of His goodness and faithfulness. You see my friend, I’m so in love with Him that I want to honor Him with my life. Not because I have too, because as we know, I don’t, but because I want too!! I get so much joy and I’m so filled with life because HE IS ALIVE !! If you or anyone else want to call that bondage that is fine with me. As I know I’m free. I see Him work in my life everyday leading me and guiding me and no man will ever take that away from me. As I told you many months ago, if any man stand and think he knows all the answers, then that man is wrong as we will never know until we meet with our king in heaven. However, as His word states, in the end times knowledge will increase and he will reveal his truth to his children. I think it is wrong for people to stand against something so wonderful that God is doing in His children. Sin yes, this no. How can any many think it wrong for someone to be so in love with our King that all they want to do is live for Him?

      I’m not about religion strictly about relationship. In the end, that is all that matters. I don’t come against your journey or anyone else’s journey if they believe in the message of the cross, that Jesus is the only way to the Father and that we are saved by grace, that it is a free gift and we are not worthy of it! PERIOD!!!!! When we all stand before or Father in heaven, we must all give an account for our own lives, I want to hear job well done my good and faithful servant!

      Daniel, be blessed, keep seeking Him as you do and His truth, as we all must do, It should be our way of life.
      Peace
      Brigitte

      • Brigitte

        Daniel, I submit one more thing because there are false teachers and prophets, do you not believe that we, as followers of Christ, should audit everything we are taught? The things that are the only truth to me are Christ’s words and what He teaches me through his Holy Spirit. We must be very careful to make sure we are not believing things of man because that is how it has always been. God never changes but man certainly does and because man is corrupt, greed, pride etc..can often times get in the way of pure, holy and righteous things of the spirit.

        We must be responsible and study for ourselves. His word says that his people parish for lack of knowledge and study to show yourself approved. I have found that there is so much more to His word then what we read at face value. He has in fact shared with us that there are hidden treasures to be found. However, it is truly a sacrifice of ones life to take the time to study, pray and fast. We are all just so busy with this life. I pray for all of us who have been reading your posts and posting what we THINK we know, that we all truly seek our King. I pray that we die to ourselves daily and to the doctrines of man and seek the purity and truth of His word and what he wants in our lives.

        Prayer:

        Father, I just lift up my brothers and sisters in you and I pray that you lead and guide each and everyone of us. May you keep our hearts humble before you. Father may you show all of us what is truly means to love you with all of our hearts, mind and soul. May you also show us what it truly means to love one another. May each one of us see your children through your eyes and not our own eyes of the flesh. Thank you my king for dying for us and being the final sacrifice for our sins. Thank you for the gift of eternal life in you. May you join us all together by your spirit and may we one day be all in one accord and that the enemy will longer be able to cause division amongst the brethren. I think you for your Holy Spirit to guide each and every one of us and keep us on your path. Let us not be pulled off track by the things of this world but stand firm and strong in your love and truth!! You are so faithful to keep each and every one of us. Thank you for all you have done and all you are doing. May we honor you with our lives and the glory be to you.

        In Yeshua’s Name AMEN!!

    • Sheila

      Daniel ,a brother in Jesus Christ, the begotten Son of the Father, we are certainly brothers and sisters in the same Jesus. We are swords or diamonds that must sharpen each other daily to prove where we are wrong and thus will have a chance to repent or examine or if fully convinced by scripture of the things we hold to be true again solely by scripture, then stand and endure to the end, if you truly think Jim Staley is who you think he is so be it. But if you ask us that question our answer is no. Now do we embrace all the doctrines of evangelical fundamental christians at large? Our answer is no just as you are of not embracing Jim Staley’s teaching at all or partly and went as far as to conclude to call him a false teacher. In the same manner as to the question of the doctrines held by hebrew roots whether we accept them all, absolutely not! We just heard about this movement just a few weeks. If Jim Staley is the Hebrew movement, we have so far found them to be true again by scripture. If by scripture that Jim Staley says anything contrary to scripture then we will pray for him for even ourselves were once pagan, catholic, then lost christians because there was no evidence of the fruit in our life. We sincerely consider you a brother in Jesus Christ but we just disagree sharply on certain important things but We will never call you a false teacher or the like. You certainly have God’s Spirit in you for who could make you to understand the scripture or gospel of Christ the way that you did about salvation and justification by faith alone but by the Spirit of God Himself. So brother we are not your enemies but if we are pray for us that if these are scales in our eyes to embrace what we have declared in your site may God our God reveal them to us by scripture. We are migrant Asians here in America and had to learn your language and culture and read and speak all gladly in English to the best we understand it and if we had offended you in any way accept our apologies.

      • I was just being a bit playful in my response when I said, “You win this round. I am outnumbered, and your comment posts are longer.”

        I appreciate your investment in these topics and in matters of the faith. I am always impressed when people actually care enough to invest the time and study in searching out the truth. Your lengthy (though not inappropriately long) posts show you really care. I really care too. I don’t really worry because I know Jesus is Sovereign and the greatest teacher. He is our Good Shepherd.

        He gave us the law and it will accomplish its purpose. It’s a good purpose and though it may take time for its purpose to be fully realized, God is patient and long suffering. I don’t pretend to know more than you or be superior or more enlightened in any way. I appreciate your prayers and love my brother and sister and am so glad we know Jesus together. It’s not a war between us but a mutual searching out the truth which will set us free.

        I apologize for casting this in terms of an argument. We ought to willingly appreciate the sharpening we have to offer one another.

        Thanks

      • Brigitte

        Daniel,

        It is so awesome when the spirit of God takes over. Thank you for your brotherly love and kind words. If only all brothers and sisters could relate to one another in the fashion, it would truly be wonderful!

        Be Blessed on your journey brother,
        Brigitte

  20. Sheila and Brigitte,

    Contextual Scripture stands against you. The fruit you claim is not of the Spirit, but of the flesh. You claim that the fruit of salvation is the keeping of the Law, yet Scripture says that the fruit of the Spirit (the Spirit in us being the evidence of salvation) is Love (Galatians 5:22-23). Furthermore, if we are led by the Spirit, we are not under the Law (Galatians 5:18).

    Sheila has testified that one of the fruits of her belief system is isolation from the Body, not unity: (“We have not been to any church since 2008 because we cannot find a place or group of people that believes and practices in the entirety of the bible.”) The letter to the Ephesians speaks to unity – of the Body of Christ actually interacting and ministering together, not of the isolation of believers unto themselves.

    You may feel like you ‘keep’ all of God’s laws (see Galatians 3:10 and James 2:10), but have become guilty of spiritual pride and a false sense of superiority to your brothers and sisters in Christ: (“. . . some of us are given one talent and some five or ten.)

    You have strayed from the Gospel – the free gift of Righteousness – God’s Righteousness – and have instead sought to establish your own:

    Romans 10:3-4
    3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

    Not only that, but you reduce obedience to God to obeying a written code, yet the Scriptures say this:

    Romans 7:4-6
    4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive,

    —> so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. <—

    As for Jim Staley – he IS a false prophet/teacher. If you have found yourself agreeing with him, I contend that you are in just as much error as is he.

    Grace and peace to you,
    -JGIG

    • Brigitte

      JGIG, I appreciate what you are saying but once again, you are saying things I did not say. I’m not isolated from the body at all, In fact, my family is very much involved in bible studies and fellowship groups.

      I never said we keep all of Gods law. It is impossible as no man is perfect. NO one I know believes that keeping the law is the way to salvation. I don’t even remember reading that in Sheila’s letter!! What we are saying is out of love for Him and all He has done for us we wish to honor Him. His word says all through the new and old testament, “if you love me then obey my commandments” Out of love for Him we do our best but praise God he has made a way for our salvation and he is the final sacrifice for our sins. You are saying the very opposite of what we believe or feel. Once again, this is persecution in it’s finest form. You are twisting what we are saying as you have no understanding my friend. That is ok. You may think and believe as you wish. As for me and my house WE WILL SERVE THE LORD!!

      Shalom

      • Brigitte

        JGIG, I stand corrected and I apologize. I had not read the earlier post by Sheila and I see that she did indeed state that she has been out of church for sometime. However, we can’t claim to know her heart or what Father is doing with them. Just because she made that statement doesn’t mean that she is actually isolated from people all the time. Perhaps asking the question instead of accusing would be more appropriate. Just a thought. I know I was accused of the isolation thing and people could not have been further from the truth. I have people over to my house all the time for meals and I make meals and take them to people of all walks of life. I look for opportunities daily to share the good news of our king. My cup runs over with rich, deep fellowship. I do not belong to a church as I believe the church resides in his children and where two or more are gathered, He is in their midst.

        Anyway, sorry for speaking out of line on that and I understand exactly where you are coming from on the isolation thing. You are 100% correct in that.

        Have a blessed day!

    • Sheila

      Friend JGIG, we were born in an Asian country who once did not know God and became catholics without difference from paganism except the idea of a creator God and His son Jesus the Savior of mankind. Then by God’s mercy turn away from catholicism and became believers when the Bible was opened in our very eyes for the first time. Then we have sought out and gathered with other believers among many different protestant and evangelical groups while still in our home country and dearly loved Jesus Christ. We came here in America in 1997 of December and were so eager to meet the Christians at large for we have heard all good news about you. We have sought protestant churches and christians and mingled, went to their churches regularly and spoke about our love of Christ everywhere we settled. We have found the Christian believers a delight to be with and we have learned vast deal about christianity here, the culture and about your founding fathers especially George Washington. He was extremely a great leader that in our recollection has no equal because of his faith in Jesus Christ and the Bible as he lived his talents here in America. In 2007, God baptized us in His Spirit and fire that by His great mercy delivered us from the bondage of our routine and worsening sins ever since our birth into the brotherhood or church of Jesus Christ until 2007 of May. That day the power of sin that engulfed our lives despite being christians attending Sunday church service, giving our tithes and charities, meeting with christians for Bible study, reading dozens of christian books, listening to great evangelical teachers, praying, fasting, commemorating Christ on Christmas and the Easter, reading the Bible and understanding them from commentaries and pastors and do good works among friends, co-workers and enemies alike, witnessed to people around us etc… was finally removed by Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God creator of the heaven and earth, the begotten son of Father of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob!!! The known sins that we did we no longer do because of the miracle He did for us. Since then our response to Him was whatever you say Lord as we find them in scripture we will do for you have forgiven us of our myriad and grievous sins that we were ashamed but had no deliverance until you, Jesus Christ, touched our hearts. Our response was in large part because He had forgiven us from so much sins. Our journey has never been the same since that day. We read the Bible with great earnestness to find out once again the many instructions and teachings in the New Testament and were willing to do all of them. Then one day we came across the question of Sabbath in the Bible and as we looked in the calendar we found that the seventh day fell on Saturday. We reasoned to each other that perhaps the Sabbath is for the Jews and Sunday is for the Christians. The following day was the beginning of our understanding of true grace, law, commandments, fear of the Lord, Love, holy living etc. We received a book that spoke about Sabbath from the seventh day adventist church entitled “Ten Commandments twice removed” . We read it a few times because it was provoking to say the least. From then we put that book down and investigated the Bible on the questions of Sabbath by reading the New testament half a dozen times at least writing everything about the Sabbath then began our journey to read the Old Testament about the same topic half a dozen times at least. Then we went to have our questions answered from the perspective of the church we were going but they dismissed us and threatened to be removed from our church from their fellowship that we long to go every Sunday. We sought and heard debates from respective belief system Sabbath or not. We kept quiet about it in the church but spoke about it outside of the church and practiced it privately. Then the study continued to investigate what does grace mean after all, how about the law? We studied it again and again writing down everything that pertains to law grace and commandments. That study lead to what Fear of the Lord, wisdom, holy living, the hard questions on living spotless, blameless, perfect, the fruit of the Spirit, the gifts of the Spirit, righteousness,etc means solely from scripture as we have believed that the Spirit given to us was going to teach us all truth! In no time without anyone telling us but scripture, we were convinced that the Sabbath was for man (not for Jews ) and he commanded it to be remembered and obeyed as in the book of Hebrews.The Seventh Day Adventist was correct and we praise God that He brought us from paganism, to catholicism, to Jesus Christ and now to obedient and holy living. When in 2008-2009 our pastor began teaching about grace, we decided that we must leave the Sunday serving church because it was a faulty doctrine based on what God had already taught us by His Spirit alone in the scripture and sought to find a church that practice the whole scripture. There was none. We decided to stay at home and began our own gathering as a family. We invited people around us but no one came so we continued every Friday to Saturday sunset observing all God’s requirements not on our own abilities but by His enabling. It was a hard decision to make because we would loose the pleasures we enjoyed on Saturday but we by God’s grace who put in our hearts a desire to walk in all His ways even if every single Christian will walk the other way determined that we will serve, obey and love God with all of our hearts mind, soul , and strength. It was in fact a delight after all!

      Now Friend JGIG, we do not know you but if you believe Jesus Christ by faith to be your Savior, Lord and Master then you too are a believer. This is not to say that you depend on someone to tell you that. Then if that is so you are a brother in the same Jesus Christ of the Bible. Again this is not to say that you need us to say that to you. If our lifestyle is demonstrated by deliverance from sins by the merciful God that for decades trapped us and nowhere to go and our response of His great miracle in our life is to do whatever He wants not on our own abilities but by the enabling of the Spirit of God just as he enabled us to walk away from the bondage of sin, there ought to be rejoicing. But why do you read in between lines about the fruit of our life is isolation from the body without asking first about our life in particular to your conception of isolation from the body. Why do you falsely mislabel what we have written. Why do you mix the fruit of the Spirit term with our response to the great mercy of God to keep His commandments. Pease be careful of the usage of your terms. Let us talk about the love of God. Did not the scripture say that the love of God is made complete by obedience to His commandments. Did it not say that those who are in the flesh does not submit to the law of God for if they are in the Spirit they would obey His laws and commands. Did not Paul say that he did not nullify the law? Did he not say that the law is holy the commandments are good etc etc. Did we not write here that salvation and justification is by faith alone as Paul wrote and that we obey the law and commandments as Paul instructed. Is it not written that Jesus came not to abolish the laws and the prophets but to fulfill them. That He fulfilled them. Are we not servants and students of the Master and as such not greater than Him and thus why do we say the laws are done away with when He Himself walked in them. Did not Revelation warned 5 of the 7 churches that if they continue to live in immorality that He will strike their names out of the book of life. Did not the book of Revelation spoke about keeping the commandments?

      Have we not said over and over again that it was God who enabled us to walk in His laws and commandments and not on our own abilities. We would never have known any of these were it not for the Spirit of God who enabled us to see them clearly in the Bible.

      About the talents we mentioned here…do you not have talents that God gave you so that you respond to things differently now as a believer. But why do you think evil in your heart to suggest that we became prideful and arrogant to have written as the scripture wrote that some of us are given one , five or ten talents as Jesus said in the parable? I have no idea how many talents God gave you perhaps plenty. Are there not babes, elders, teachers etc in the body of Christ? Why do you not understand what we wrote? Are we not growing in the grace of God that as we grow He teaches us things that if we are faithful in obeying what we have already been given, He would give us morE?You see we don’t mean that we have more than you have, we simply say that even the scripture itself reveals that some have 1,5,10 talents. Once we were from pagan origin, then to catholicism, then to the revelation of the sacred book the Holy Bible, then to understanding of things that we were ignorant of in the past and to learn all these in English. But be that as it may, we ask for your forgiveness that we have become prideful and arrogant in your eyes. But rest assured that we do not consider ourselves any greater than anyone and in fact we have no one to depend on our growth but through the mercy of Christ by scripture alone which by the way does not mean that you do not depend on scripture yourself. You see if you read in between lines and not take what was written but speculate on what possibly we mean then we will never be able to have clarity in our discussion.

      Now in the area of feel that we keep the laws of God…we do keep the laws of God. This does not mean that we do not stumble on certain things because we sometimes forget how, what or when and more seriously we could not find anyone until very recently that actually there have been a growing number who do so. Besides out of Zion Jesus Himself will teach us all His laws and ways on the new earth. Furthermore, did He not say to be careful in keeping His commandments? When there is a command that we are not keeping we ought to ask God for forgiveness and ask Him to remind us and enable us to keep them carefully because on our own it is impossible. But God is gracious that He does not condemn us for unintentional sins but that when it is discovered or known that we must repent.

      We want to say more about all the things you assert but we have already written about them in the previous. We believe that it is God Himself will convict and teach and transform and enable. As for Jim Staley, we do not call him false teacher. If he is the Hebrew movement and what we have heard so far from the things he said in his teachings are sound although we are not his followers or belonging to his church or group. I have learned not to call anyone who believes in the saving Grace by faith on Jesus Christ and has repented and believed in Him names that have been used to label against Jim Staley. Doctrinal differences will always be there but we must be ready to defend by scripture what we believe and live them out. We consider you a brother or sister in Jesus Christ and believe that you are a believer. We just have sharp doctrinal differences and we will never call you a false teacher or such as you did to Jim Staley. May the grace and peace of Jesus multiply in you.

  21. Brigitte

    I went back and read all the other blogs as it has been a long time since I have. It appears that these have all started to expose Jim Staley as a false teacher. In doing so I guess it opens up the door to say that others such as myself, that don’t follow Jim or the Hebrew Root Movement but the Holy Spirit are also following a false teaching. That is where I got involved in the whole blogging situation.

    Like Jim and many others, I’m compelled to honor my king, my Savior, my everything! I can’t even live without his presence with me. I’m a lost pile of nothing without him in my life. If he moves me to let go of worldly things like Christmas and Easter, that he has shown me, do not in any way honor Him, then I will do so! If he puts on my heart to partake of the feasts which he commanded us to do for every generation to come, then I will do so. If he says to me, ” If you love me, obey my commandments” His words not mine, then I will do so. He has shown me that to truly serve Him, we will go against the flow of this world and will be persecuted for it. The road becomes more narrow the closer we get to Him. Again, I say, if that looks like bondage to others, I just don’t care. It is more important to me, to be pleasing to Him then to any man.

    It just hurts my heart so deeply that the brethren fight against this so intensely. The fight is not with one another but with the prince of this air. He is our true enemy. The deceiver, who has been deceiving man since the Garden of Eden so why would we not think he is doing so now? It is hard for me to believe that anyone would come against anyone who just wants to honor our king. There are indeed false teachers and false prophets all around us, some right under our noses!! We need to be vigilant and very awake to this truth. I understand trying to expose the deceiver but being very careful that pride is not the guide. I don’t hear people saying that one must follow the law to be saved. What I hear them saying is because we love Him we allow Him to write the laws on our hearts and obey the best we can. Not because it gets us into heaven but because we love him. We are saved by grace. We are saved by what Jesus did for us on the cross. There is nothing we can do to earn salvation. What about this is false?? Is this not what you believe as well?? If it is, then we serve the master. If it is not, then we don’t serve the same master. Perhaps where we differ is how we choose to serve our master. How can any man dispute how another man wants to honor our king.

    We should be praying for the lost, fasting for our nation and our world. We need to pray that we are worthy to escape what lies ahead. We need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. It is time for the warriors to arise and take their rightful position with the King. It is time to know who we serve and the authority he has given us. It is time to put away childish arguments and think on the things above. Nothing else matters. If you believe Jim to be a false teacher then pray for Him and those that follow. God is much bigger then you or I and can work it out. Don’t spend time slashing him and coming against things you may not really know about but just think you do. People, time is short. Let get real with ourselves and with our Lord. Let Him sort through these issues. One thing I have found, is he is very capable and faithful. We never know who will stand next to us in the battle or next to us in heaven. We must learn how to love one another and stand together. We must learn who the battle is really with.

    I have heard some of Jim Staleys teachings and frankly have found some of it to be very helpful. I have listened to many a man and women, Joesph Prince, Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen, Charles Stanley etc… They all have great things to teach but in the end, it is our responsibility to study and learn from the one true master. To take the things they teach and run them through the word itself. Frankly, I have found that most teachers error in one thing or another. Praise God He is good.

    Shalom,
    Brigitte

  22. Brigitte, I hear your heart, I do, and totally understand where you’re coming from. I understand that for most who strive to keep the Law it’s not for salvation, but they feel they do so to honor and obey God.

    God’s commandments after the Cross, however, are but two:

    1 John 3:23-24
    23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

    And love is not only a command, but is a Fruit of the Holy Spirit, which He produces in and through us – we bear that Fruit, which is a fulfillment of the Law. God no longer requires us to observe the shadows, but enables us to walk/abide/fellowship in the Reality and fullness of His Character, Who is Christ (Col. 2, Heb. 1).

    It is not commandment-keeping which pleases God, but faith (and I don’t doubt your faith, just question your focus):

    Without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb. 11:6), and the Law is not of faith (Gal. 3:12).

    Your posts are filled with heartfelt conviction, yet lack contextual Scriptural support. You defend Jim Staley, who is clearly a false teacher when his teaching is measured against the Scriptures, as Daniel has done here and as I have done over at JGIG (http://joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com/gateways-into-the-hebrew-roots-movement-an-examination-of-identity-crisis-and-related-teachings-of-jim-staley/).

    Jim Staley says, “You want to touch the Face of God? According to the Torah, you have to be clean! And we’re not talking physical! It’s spiritual. And if we’ve been deceived into thinking, (and here Staley uses a mocking tone) ‘Oh, I can just waltz into the throne of grace ’cause I have the Blood of Yeshua on my heart.’ . . . Try that one! Let’s see how it works for ya.

    “You don’t come before your King . . . unclean. You come with clean hands, and a pure heart. And unfortunately the Bible says that we deceive ourselves . . . by thinking we’re okay.”

    Jim Staley says that Christ’s Blood does not cleanse, it does not purify, it does not make holy. So the Blood of Yeshua means nothing according to Jim Staley.

    The Scriptures say that Because of the Work of Christ we are cleansed and purified – made clean – by Christ’s Blood:

    Hebrews 10:11-14
    11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

    And because of the Work of Christ, we can approach the throne of grace with confidence:

    Ephesians 3:7-12
    7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all God’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make throne of grace plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

    Hebrews 4:14-16
    14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are —yet was without sin. 16 Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

    Jim Staley is teaching in direct opposition to what the Scriptures clearly proclaim – on the above alone he has demonstrated that he is a false teacher that preaches a false ‘gospel’.

    It is appropriate to take a stand against such teaching. The issues I have with Jim Staley have little to do with the ‘keeping’ of days, feasts, and dietary laws. The issues are the false gospel and the false jesus/yeshua that he preaches along with the clear spiritual abuse to which he subjects those in his fellowship as detailed in the link above.

    Brigitte, I have a question for you: What happens to you if you choose not to keep Old Covenant days, feasts, dietary laws, etc.?

    • Brigitte

      JGIG, nothing happens to me. I’m covered by the blood of Jesus. He is the final sacrifice for my sins. As I stated before, I don’t know what all Jim Staley teaches as I don’t follow him closely at all. I agree if anyone is teaching a false Jesus they are wrong and we should take a stand against that. I just think we need to be very cautious in doing so and frankly, I feel the persecution from many brothers and sisters for the way I chose to honor our King. I believe that I’m clean because of Jesus/Yeshua. Nothing I do can fix anything, it is all about Him and what he did.

      I know there are people out there that follow the Laws etc.. that take on the ways of the Pharisees, in which God is very against and the Apostles taught against. But my friend, there are many main stream, church going people that take on the ways of the Pharisees as well. I and the people I fellowship with do not take such a stand. We are about what the scriptures say that Love believes all things and hopes for all things. We seek Him daily to give us the grace to love people and to discern right from wrong.

      Your comment “yet lack contextual Scriptural support” I feel is out of line and not appropriate as you have never met me nor have I really expressed my scripture knowledge with you. If we were able to speak in person and have a friendly, holy spirit conversation, I would gladly go through the scriptures with you and study together. I would not do it to dispute or prove myself right or you wrong but to learn and grow in Him.

      Thank you for bringing up faith. Yes, I fully accept that and clearly know that He is moved by our faith. It is our faith in the end that pleases him and nothing else. But it is by my faith that I honor Him. It is by faith that I strive to live a righteous and holy life in which He asks us to do.

      Blessings,
      Brigitte
      .

    • marc

      May i ask you why did you call it old covenant? Isnt it the new covenant will be placed in our minds and God will write it on our hearts? WHAT DO YOU THINK GOD PUT ON OUR HEARTS AS HIS LAW? Did he revise his law or is it the same law he gave to moses only the manner of placing it on our lives so we wont forget? God never change. His word or law will endure forever. Sabbath is a sign between us and God for generations to come. If you obey God then you show your love through faith and obedience, if you defy it curse will be upon you as simple as that. Will you take for granted what jesus did for you he came allthe way down to die for you and still your stubborn arrogant pride will just reign over you and disregard the law that he himself taught when he was alive. Following God’s law will be for your own good. Think about the consequences of pork. Are you tooo busy to spend your time with God during sabbath? The system of these world have already driven you away from God and jesus look at your week tell me from mon-sun which is God’s day? Sun day whose for the roman sun god, or satur day for the saturn god or thursday who is thors day?

      • Jeremiah 31:32 clearly states that the New Covenant will not be like the one that God made with Israel’s ancestors when they came out of Egypt, yet that’s the very one you seem to want to go back to. God’s Law after the Cross is this:

        23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. (from 1 Jn. 3)

        The ‘consequences of pork’? Well, even under the Law (which those in Christ have died to) is that one is unclean ’til evening.

        Too busy to spend time with God? No, I do so every day in all circumstances. That’s the beauty of the Holy Spirit sealing us in the New Covenant (Eph. 1 and 2).

        Live by the Law, which actually stirs up sin, if you like, but I choose to be led by the Spirit, and not by the Law.

        Which do you think is superior, the Spirit or the Law?

      • Brigitte

        JGIG, you are right, we are no longer under the law. Yeshua has set us free from the penalty of the law. We are saved by His grace and His grace only. However, I agree 100% with Marc! It is not that we are under the law but He, Yeshua, did say several times, if you love me obey my commandments. When the disciples and Jesus walked on this earth, they did not have the New Testament writings. Therefore when they spoke of the commandments and the the prophets they were speaking of the writings in the Old Testament. When satan tried to tempt Jesus, Jesus said to him “It is written” Well, what is written? God’s word! God says in his word that he NEVER changes. The bible is so beautifully written and He is so beyond us. When Jesus fulfilled the law in Matt 5:17 to me it means He perfectly walked it out. He gaves us the example as how we were to live our lives. Yes, the New Covenant is that He wrote it on our hearts, not that he abolished it. We just don’t pay the penalty for it anymore! We are free from the bondage of the law. He is the final sacrafice for mankind. It doesn’t mean that we don’t use it as intructions in our life. In fact, in Hebrew, the word law is Torah which means instructions.

        It is so sad to me how the word of God has been so watered down and the grace message has been so exploited. Look around you, Christians don’t look any different from the world. All the ones I see live a life that is just as gray as the rest of the world. I have deciced to hang up my christian roots and the doctrine and theology of man and now I’am a bonifide Christ Follower. I want to live out my life according to His word and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I want to be a peculiar people as Yeshsua talks about…set apart from this World consumed only by Him!! It so easy and so simple so much so that I now see that Christians are actually in bondage, which makes me very sad. I will write more about this later.

        This discussion could go on forever but until you pray for God to remove the scales from the eyes and start to see His word the way He intended it to be, then you will just keep arguing about it. It has amazed me over and over again that anytime I have this discussion with a Christian they ALL do the same thing, totally Freak out about the word Law! So much so that they get filled with anger and cross the line of love. I have literally seen people almost seem to manifest a demonic spirit against God’s word. It is so strange to me that Christians can’t see that people that want to live for Jesus and believe that he set the standard for how we are to live our lives are truly and infatically in love with Him. It is how we choose to walk out our faith and show how much we love Him. We have not strayed from the Word and follow a false teaching. Just the opposite, we 100% believe all of his word and don’t pick and choose what we want too. When it is stated that all the commandments rest on these to Love Him and Love your neighbor, can’t you see that the first one to love him covers the the first half of the 10 commandments and the love your neigbor covers the second 1/2 because if you love Him you won’t violate the first half and if you love your neighbor you won’t violate the second half. There is much depth to the word of God and I belive that is why He said, “study to show yourself approved” and in 2 Peter 3 Peter warns us that Pauls writings are hard to understand and the unlearned and unstable man will twist them and all the scriptures to their own destruction. Praise Yah, when we do stumble we have an advocate in Him.

        We have a responsibity as Children of the King most high to audit what we are taught by man and the system. To really get on our knees and seek him with all of our hearts. To make sure we are not doing things our way but His way. Are we all so stupid to really think that Satan has not been trying to corrupt the word of God since the time of Adam and Eve. We can all say he has tried to put a wedge in the family, in sexual orientation, abortion etc but seriously can’t see that he has twisted and water down the word to keep Christians in a place of complacency and lawlessness. Not all Christians mind you but I see the same thing over and over again, washed out, exhausted, hopeless, weighed down, lazy christians that have no life of Christ in them. Flickers perhaps but overall, just existing, It is a tragedy. they shoudl be exactly the opposite especially with the holy spirit inside of them! See apart, and filled with His Joy no matter what. ” The joy of the Lord is my strength”

        One final note, I don’t believe He will love us anymore or anyless by what we do. We can’t earn his love. BUT I can’t help but wander what treasures we store up in Heaven. I would much rather error on the side of walking out my faith according to His word then take a chance and just live my life whatever way I see fit as grace will cover it all!

        Brigitte

      • Cel

        Yes! Agreed!! Thank you for sharing.

  23. Christiana Horn

    Great post, JGIG. You should also know, Brigitte, that Jim Staley, at one time, had over 20 pending lawsuits against him, some from people who contend that he defrauded them in business, and some from the MO state government, who claimed he defrauded the government in the non-payment of taxes and misrepresented himself to others in business ventures. He definitely has not shown the fruit of someone who actually follows Christ. . .another sign of a false teacher.

    • Brigitte

      Christiana, I’m fully aware of Jim’s sin’s and short comings but as our father says,” he that casts the first stone…” AGAIN, I’m not hear to debate Jim Staley or anyone elses sin as I have my own to contend with. I know little about him and have only listened to a few of his teachings. If you guys are experts on him and feel he is a false teacher then perhaps he is. I really can’t say one way or the other as I have never spent time looking into it. I spend my time on studying for myself, allowing God to change me and teach me His ways. The deepest cry of my heart if for the lost and for all of us to truly love as it covers a multitude of sins. I truly hope you guys pray for Jim and speak of him with God’s love. It is ok to not accept his teaching and even (in love) point out the fact that you think he might be wrong, but again I caution you, don’t think you have all the answers!!! It is a very dangerous place to be. I do not think I have all the answers. What I do know about myself is that I’m seeking Him with all of my heart. I only want what he wants in my life. I have learned that everything else is a waste of time.

      If we really stop and look at the men and women teaching the word of God, can we not find fault with all of them?? We are all sinners and it is by His grace that we are even standing.There are so many doctrines of man that brothers and sisters hang their hat on that are not of God but they really believe it is. It really breaks my heart. If something sounds right to someone, then it must be right. There is no perfect teacher. We know them by their fruit and if their fruit is rotten then we move on. So many are deceived and being led down the wrong road. We should pray and fast for them. From what I understand, it is our job to intercede for people.

      Anyway, I guess this could go on forever. I have spoken what is on my heart and appreciate everyone’s time. Study the word, seek him, follow his truth only

      Be blessed,
      Brigitte

      • Your heart is in the right place, but your not seeing the Wolf and dealing with the destruction that he brings. I have seven children. If there was a wild dog in my yard, I’d go after it with a baseball bat to protect me and my children, and warn my neighbors to do likewise to protect their families.

        That is all we’re doing with Jim Staley. Some of us are very familiar with the path of destruction he leaves behind him and are doing the absolute right thing in alerting other believers to the false doctrines he preaches and to the controlling methods he employs within his own flock.

        I listen to several teachers – and don’t agree with everything they teach, and do a great deal of study on my own and through our local body, as well. I get that =o). But they are solid on the core issues of the Christian faith, and they demonstrate good fruit. Jim Staley fails on both those fronts.

        And it’s okay to point out when a teacher is teaching flat-out heresy. A wishy-washy “I think he may be off in this or that area” is not what’s needed in refuting the teachings of Jim Staley – the man is in flat-out heresy. Not only that, but he testifies to a Joseph-Smith-type (the founder of Mormonism) experience on which he built Passion For Truth Ministries. You can read about that on my post regarding Staley over at JGIG (I link to it in an earlier comment). Beyond those two serious issues is the way he shepherds his local flock. The spiritual abuse evident there is textbook.

        So while I appreciate your ‘why can’t we all get along’ heart – and I belong to a church where many gather from different traditions and backgrounds, finding our unity in Christ – so I live a church-life where showing deference to fellow believers on secondary issues is the reality – I GET what you’re saying. Jim Staley is a wolf. Exposing that fact is the right thing to do.

        Grace and peace to you,
        -JGIG

  24. Will

    Hmmm….where to begin. Perhaps an introduction. I had never heard of Jim Staley before today. In fact I came to this site as part of a Google search to find out more about him when I stumbled upon this article and subsequent discussion. I share that with you because I want to establish for the record that I’m not defending Staley or his teachings as I know nothing about them. I am for the record a part of this Hebrew Roots movement, though I prefer the term Messianic. I believe in salvation through grace by faith in Christ but I also believe that faith in no way absolves me from keeping the commandments of G-d, what you refer to as the Law. After all do I by faith nullify the Law. May it never be rather I establish the Law? Romans 3:31 the same Law Paul declared to be holy, and righteous and good. Romans 7

    Why do you condemn us and make subtle accusations that we are a cult? Perhaps labels are easier than the truth? Both Shiela and Brigette, like myself believe in salvation by grace just as I assume each of you do as well. The difference is that we believe that the Torah is still applicable to the believer today. Whereas each of you seem to believe that only some or none at all is applicable to the believer. You see the Law as something fundamentally bad and therefore read the scriptures as liberating us from this bondage. But the Law is not a burden….it’s a blessing. The sovereign king of the universe has communicated to His people standards of righteous behavior. Don’t believe me read Psalms 119 and see what David has to say about G-ds Law. The whole chapter is a love song about the beauty of G-ds Law. Why would G-d ever want to take away something that was holy and righteous and good? The problem was not the Law per se but the effect the Law produced. Before the Law we all stand condemned, this is why atonement had to be made.

    Let me ask you. Before Christ death and resurrection, how were the people in the OT saved? Was it by works or by grace? If you say works then what scriptures do you offer to defend that position. Furthermore, what was the purpose of the animal sacrifices as outlined in Leveticus? If you then say that it was in fact by grace just as we are saved by grace today, then why if G-d expected them to keep the Law then even though they too were saved by grace are we not expected to keep them today?

    The truth is that most of you don’t actually believe the Law was done away with but rather you believe that some of the Law was done away with while other parts remained. But that is not Biblical. What is sin? If a friend comes to you and tells you that he has committed adultery, would you tell him not to sweat it, that the law has been done away with and therefore he has not sinned? I seriously doubt that but if you would then friend you and I are definitely reading a different Bible and that will have to be a whole other discussion. If you tell him though that he has sin and must repent, what is it that you are saying he has done. 1John 3:4 tells us that sin is transgression of the Law. Well if the Law has been done away with then there is no such thing as sin. Since we know that is not true then the Law remains. You argue that only the moral law remains but that the ceremonial law has been abolished. First the bible makes no such distinction between a ceremonial and moral law. In fact, James (whose real name was actually Jacob) said in chapter 2 10-11 if you transgress even a small portion of the Law you are in violation of the whole demonstrates beyond refutation that the Torah is a unified whole and can not be separated. Besides what do we mean by moral. Moral roughly defined simply means distinguishing between that which is right and wrong. If G-d says to do something or not do something doesn’t that make all the Laws moral?

    You struggle with this because you choose to define Torah only by the word Law but Torah is so much deeper than that so much more meaningful. You are correct part of the Torahs mission or job was to act as our guide and ultimately lead us to Christ, but the Torah doesn’t cease to exist at that point, rather my relationship to Torah changes. My parents served as my guardian when I was a child. Their job was to protect me and ultimately discipline me so that I would grow into a responsible adult. Now that I am an adult that particular function held by my parents comes to an end and my relationship with them changes and they serve as my guides as I continue to grow. They same is true with the Torah.

    My friends you are holding to almost two millennium of a western centered as opposed to Hebrew centered faith that frankly has more in common with the teachings of Plato than with Paul. A faith that was eve loved by the teachings of me like Augustine, Justin Martyr, Calvin, and Luther who were all virulently anti-Semitic. And it’s because of men like these that we misread scripture verses like Romans 10:4 and believe Christ has brought an end to the law. By the way, the Greek word used for the word “end” is the word telos and does not mean come to an end like, ” the race came to an end or the the movie came to an end.” Telos is a Greek word which according to Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (which is incidentally, a “Protestant” work), correctly states that telos in Romans 10:4, should be defined as, “the final issue or result of a state or process.” Thus Christ is the goal of the Torah that which the Torah is designed to point us in the direction of that we may ultimately attain him. It should not and cannot be read as anything else. All of this should make for interesting discussions within the Body of Christ and yet you hurl insults at us and demonize us and treat us as outcasts when like you we preach Christ crucified and salvation by grace and grace alone. It’s so ironic and more than a little amusing that you condemn us for wanting to study and grow in the roots of our Hebrew faith, a faith that was given to the Hebrews, by Hebrew apostles from a Hebrew Messiah. Paul said that as Gentiles are roots are Jewish, then why the apprehension toward the Jewish roots of your faith? I for one welcome a good debate on the merits of the arguments presented above but so far all I have seen by some is petty name calling and passive aggressive attempts to label us as cultists, which by the way Daniel is so absurd I hesitated to even acknowledge it in the first place. Shiela and Brigette, I am very proud of how you both have conducted yourself in this discussion and as far as I am concerned I think you have done an admirable job in presenting the ideas of the Hebrew Roots faith in love. Take heart there are more of us out there than you can imagine and the number of followers increases with each passing day and remember people have been in opposition to G-ds holy Torah from the beginning and will be until the end, so fight the good fight and keep the faith.

    • Brigitte

      Will,

      It is so wonderful to hear of others. I know God is moving swiftly on the hearts of his children as the time is drawing near. He has said in His word that knowledge will increase. I’m blown away how his is breaking down the old foundations of what we have been taught and rebuilding them with HIM AS THE CORNERSTONE!! Praise YAH! I understand people are waking up all over the world!

      I do understand where all these guys are coming from, as I was there two years ago myself. It is so hard to audit what we have been taught all of these years. We had gone to a non-denomonational church for 20+ years. We had the a similar experience to Sheila as Father was showing us stuff in the word or through prayer but whenever I would try to talk to the Pastor about it, well, it did not go well. You actually start to feel like you are crazy or perhaps in sin of some sort because everything Father is showing you goes against the institution (CHURCH). Yet, all of it is in his word. You see, we felt a calling in our King to make Him the head, our great sheppard, not a man. To get on our knees and study the word for ourselves and not let a man gives us his interpretation on it. All I can say is wow!!

      Finally, we left the church and wow, is God taking us on an incredible journey. It is like we have been on this amazing archeological dig and we are discovering new treasures in Him almost daily. He says for those that have an ear let them hear. Well, our ears are very opened. Actually, I believe all these folks on here love Christ as much I do. However, I got a revelation yesterday as I was praying for them that main stream Christianity is actually the ones in bondage. I saw that they actually have Jesus in a box. Where as, if you really take in the entire Bible, God is out of the box and then we are truly free. As I stated in one of these letters, it is the Christians that are our greatest persecutors. The word law really trips them up. God has shown me why but it is to long to write about on here. It blows my mind that they are blinded to it and it is right in front of them in the word. Same with Christmas and Easter, they really get upset over this one. Yet, the word is so clear on it. I could list all the things but if people really want to know, they can study it our for themselves. You hit is on the head when you said what you said about a friend in adultry. People want to keep part of the word but disregard what doesn’t fit. Yet, they all go hand in hand. All I can say, is I’m so greatful that Father has shown me his treasures.

      There are so many false teachers out there who believe in the same Jesus as us but they take scriptures and twist them for their own gain. I have seen it over and over again. I really don’t consider myslef to be a part of any movement such as the HRM but I definetly know that God is moving us towards something greater then what has been.

      Anyway, thanks for the encouragement and may more and more people be set free by the truth of all his word.

      Peace,
      Brigitte

    • Cel

      Will, love what you shared and the way you shared it. It is wonderful to know there are others on the same path as we are. Praise Yahweh!

  25. Brigitte

    JGIG, you must do what you feel you must do. If Father has commissioned you with this mission, then who am I to stand in the way. We will simply have to agree to disagree and move on. May you be in His will always and may his peace and joy follow you wherever you go.

  26. Will

    Guys I would like to apologize if I offended anyone. I don’t really know if the comments section of Daniels blog is the best forum for a debate over our various beliefs concerning the law. I just felt that Messianic Christians, since we are technically members of the Hebraic Roots movement and are Law keepers, that we were being demonized and that are beliefs were being completely misrepresented. As I noted earlier, a true Messianic Christian preaches salvation by grace and grace alone and that any other message other than Christ Crucified is a different gospel. So calling us a cult is like a Baptist referring to Methodists as being in a cult. So we believe some things different than you, I doubt seriously that everyone who posted on this blog holds to the exact same theology.

    JGIG I wanted to tell you that I had the opportunity to go to your website today and was very impressed for the most part with what I found. I thought some of your articles were both insightful and thought provoking. And while I may have disagreed with your conclusions I could certainly respect the logic that led you to those conclusions as you did a great job helping the reader move from one idea to another. I have actually recommended a few of the articles to a few of my Messianic friends as I felt they articulated well the ideas and opinions of the other side. That being said I have a critique, I wish you would go back and tone down or better yet eliminate the sarcasm and the condescension. It is not only unbecoming of someone of your talent but it detracts from what many times would be a well written article. Just my two cents.

    Unfortunately my job is taking me away and I will unlikely be able to access or post anything on here for several months so please don’t think I am ignoring you or tucked my tail and ran, just the nature of my work.

  27. I just have to say this. When a relation of mine asked me to watch the video of Jim Staley’s Identity Crisis, I had no reason not to like him or respect him as a teacher. I had never heard of him and had barely ever heard of the Hebrew Roots Movement. For my loved one’s sake I really wanted to approve of what he was saying and enjoy his teaching as another servant of the Lord.

    What I found however was someone who distorts the truth of Scripture and history to postulate nonsense that brings people into bondage. This is a big deal. He is working against everything Paul fought so hard for in his ministry and letters to the church.

    I am curious if there is anyone in this HR movement that actually makes any sense?

    • Jim

      I left the movement after being in it for the last 8 years of my life. The answer is simply, no. If you want a sane look at scripture and people who don’t rely on conspiracy, false history, and who don’t cut and paste the bible because it’s all God’s word, then you would have to find a Messianic congregation. They are rare, and most are actually Hebrew Roots. Hebrew Roots has gotten a lot of bad feedback so lots are using “Christian Roots” or the Messianic name. Real Messianic groups are out there though and you will know them because they really don’t get along with Hebrew Roots views or people.

      This was a good article and when my family got me to watch Jim Staley that’s when i started to realize how bad my beliefs where. I will say though you are poking a bear when you come down on Jim Staley. His followers wade through hell and high water to stick up for him, and he him self doesn’t doesn’t handle criticism well.

    • Jennifer Foss

      Tom Bradford does a podcast called, “Torah Class.” It is taught with historical context in mind and does not make presumptions, but gives what I believe to be a clearer, more logical understanding of Torah observing Christians. I think anyone could benefit from the class setting he has through these podcast, whether you choose to believe your “grafted into Israel” or not.

  28. Pingback: Apology to Jim Staley | Daniel Lovett

  29. marc

    May i ask you one thing? WHAT DO YOU THINK JESUS’ LAWS ARE? What do you think jesus is teaching during his time? Didn’t jesus said that he did not come to abolished or destroy the law but to fulfill it? Do you think paul did not follow the sabbath during that time when he was alive or the rest of the disciples? Jesus himself preach during sabbath. Was there a new testament during jesus time on earth? Jesus came hear to clean our sins and to start a new life following the law of his father who is the only God. Do not be consumed by the god of this world my friend. Do not twist the word just to fulfill your earthly desires. The word is the law and the word is jesus himself so how can he break his own self. Do not let this world consumes you. Now that jesus saved us, we need to follow the law which was set by God through faith. Obedience is the only way you can prove you love God through faith.

  30. bryan

    Daniel. I give you credit for being very pat on the typical rebuff of people like Jim Staley. I heard it all my life. I was you till just 3 tyears ago. But first if I may, I would like to tell you to be very careful what you attribute to the work of Satan. Yeshua in the gospels had just cast demons out of a man and the Pharisees attributed it to the power of the devil. It was in that conversation that Yeshua told us that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven. Don’t be too quick to attribute things you don’t agree with to the work of the devil.

    The faith I aspire to is the faith that Abraham displayed. James in James 2:22 described it. It is very simple. Abraham’s faith produced the work and the work perfected the faith. Every example of works that James gives in that chapter in found in the Torah.The Torah is the instruction manual for us to know how to live a righteous life before God. You see, grace and law are not opposites as the church teaches. The law was not given for salvation. The law can save no one.

    Grace is not something new. The grace of God is the reason for all He does and has always done for us. No one has ever deserved any blessings from God. It was because of His grace that He gave us the law.Duet 28 reveals to us the curses and blessings depending on if we folow His law or not. He wants us to receive the blessings so He told us how. It was by grace that He gave the promise to Abraham that through his seed [Yeshua] would all the world be blessed.

    Biases are very difficult to get past. For instance. If I asked “who sold Joseph into slavery?” you would probably answer “his brothers”. But if we read Gen 37:28 we see that the Midianites pulled him out of the pit and sold him to the Ishmaalites. I even showed that to my brother in law and he just wouldn’t believe it even reading it with his own eyes.Joseph’s brothers conspired to do it but the Midianites beat them to it. So don’t be so sure that the interpretation of Paul that you have heard all your short life is correct.

    1 John 3:4 says that sin is the transgression of the law. Paul says himself that the law shows us what is sin. It is to our benefit if we know the law so we know if we sin. I know the church pretty much teaches that the Holy Spirit reveals to us how to live so we don’t sin. But if that is true then what is sin to one person might not be sin to another. Because they have not yet been convicted by the Holy Spirit. Sin becomes subjective to the conscience rather than the Word of God.

    Trying to interpret what Paul is saying was a problem even back then. Peter himself said that he is difficult to understand. So if it was even difficult for Peter, what about us? Rather than base our beliefs on how interpret Paul, shouldn’t we base it on the living, walking Word {Yeshua}? We have to remember that Word that He is is the Torah.

    One more thing. In Matthew 7 towards the end, Yeshua told us that many will come to judgement proclaiming all the things they did in Yeshua’s name yet He will tell them to depart, that He never knew them and called them workers of iniquity. Iniquity is lawlessness. The word workers means to produce or cause to exist. So the ones that He will say are those who caused lawlessness to exist. We must be careful not to speak against the Word. In context, Yeshua had just been talking about being aware of wolves in sheeps clothing and called them false prophets. We know who false prophets are by looking back in scripture to see how God identified them. Duet 13 tells us that if one doing signs and wonders comes to you and tries to lead you away from His commands unto other gods they are a false prophet. This fits perfectly with the one who causes lawlessness to exist.

    Daniel. It is so simple. Once we believe then we need to live a life of rightoeusness. The Creator of the universe took the time to show us how to do that. Why do we hate it so?

    • I guess I wonder if you even read this blog post. You were also mistaken about what you used as an example of bias from Gen 37:28. I looked it up. I choose not to be offended by your insinuations. Perhaps something you had to say will contribute positively to the conversation in some way.

      • Brigitte

        Daniel, it’s always a good place to be to never take on an offense, so good for you. However, I think Bryan was right with his reference to Gen 37:28. When I read what he wrote, I said to myself, “WHAT?” that can’t be, as I have always been taught that his brothers sold Joesph into slavery. That was MY BIAS towards it. So I pulled out my NLT translatation and NKJV and behold Bryan was wrong but then the Holy Spirit said, “NO read, the 1599 Geneva, Complete Jewish Bible and the KJV ” So i did, and low and behold, there it was as clear as day! The Midianites did pull him out of the pit and bought him. You see, the enemy has used man for 1700 + years to keep God’s childern in this place of division and has been successful in keeping us blinded in many things. I believe with all of my heart that Paul’s teachings have been misunderstood and twisted by man. The enemy has actually done it since the Garden of Eden. I believe with all my heart that is why He sent his Holy Spririt to teach us and why in His scriptures he tells us too, “Study to show ourselves approved.

        Furthermore, I have been following your blog since the beginning, which does seem to have diminished to some to degree, but I have always understood that you started this blog to point about some false teachings against Jim Staley. In doing, so it opened up a huge discussion on exactly what Bryan, myself and many others have wrote about on this blog site. I understand that might not have been your intention but I believe with all my heart, it went that way for a reason. I sure know God has used it in my life. So, yes, what Bryan wrote, in my opinion, has contributed positively to the conversation as it certainly caused me to question, dig and read for myself rather then just accept what has always been taught by man. Anytime, something has that affect, then it is always good. Look for yourself how how differnt the NLT and NKJV translations are from the other 3 translations I pointed out. This scripture is not the only issue I have ran across. I have seen several. One more example is in Col 2:16. The NLT translation has added the word NOT where it is saying. “or for NOT celebrating certain holy days” this little word NOT completely changes that scripture passage. Why would man do that? Why are all these translations different? I would suggest to any of your readers that if you are not studying for yourself and truly living a set apart life for our King, then you might want to seriously start thinking about it! Many are and will be deceived because they follow after their own ways. There is only one way and He is it. He is the only one who can guide us and direct our path. We have to let him break down the mindsets and theology and let Him rebuild the foundation.

        Shalom,
        Brigitte

      • Shalom to you as well Brigitte. When I visited Israel it was the only word I knew and I used it often. I felt relieved to be back in the states where I could conversate freely.

        Interestingly the whole translation subject came up tonight at a get together with some brothers. I told them if you want to understand the Bible less, then read the KJV. Ha!

        At any rate we did discuss how translations have become more clear not less and the wording of this particular verse is ridiculous way to spend time researching.

        According to the “authorized” KJV it reads: “Then there passed by Midianites merchantmen; and they drew and lifted up Joseph out of the pit, and sold Joseph to the Ishmeelites for twenty pieces of silver: and they brought Joseph into Egypt.”

        All subsequent translations make it clear that the “they” in this passage refers to the brothers. This is backed up by Joseph’s own testimony in Gen 45:4 ““I am Joseph, your brother, whom you sold into slavery in Egypt.”

        I started this blog because I wanted to be writer, so I thought I’d practice my writing. The blog had been up 2 years before I even heard of Jim Staley or the HRM. I have already explained why I wrote this particular blog. I have no animosity for Jim Staley. I will give him a big hug in heaven when I see him.

      • Brigitte

        Daniel, Wow, what a blessing to be able to go over to Israel, That must have been a very special time for you. I feel that anything in His scriptures that a person feels is worthy of researching is worthy. They are all valuable and have purpose. In 2 Tim 3:16 it states that ALL scripture is valuable…..

        In the end, Joseph’s brothers are guilty as their heart was to sale him into slavery instead of murdering him. I was just showing that it is a good idea to make sure to dig and read. I have found things do get changed around with one word here or there and sometimes changes the meaning if the reader is not hearing from the Holy Spirit.

        Daniel, you seem to be a very lovely young man who truly loves our King with all your heart. As we all should do, just keep seeking Him for truth and never think you have all the answers. He is big God and I think there is more he wants to show his children. I also believe that there is a wave of his holiness coming our way. We all must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling Phil 2:12.

        Brigitte

      • I have been amazed at how much the Lord has graciously shown me over the last few months. I’ve learned a great deal since posting this particular blog post a year ago. I have learned that the most important thing is love and respect. I am learning to do better about that. I realize we all have a part to play and apparently my part was to be a thorn in Jim Staleys side… ha!

        I actually kind of see this as God in his wisdom providing checks and balances. Jim providing a check for us, and me reciprocating. He did drive me to study and discover and appreciate the grace of God. I trust that he is sincere in his trust of Jesus as his Savior and as such I expect to see him and you and everyone else reading this who trusts our loving Savior.

      • bryan

        Well, Daniel. I guess the writer of Genesis couldn’t figure out what really happened or what he meant to say. Maybe once again lost in translation. It is clear that the Midianites pulled him out and sold him to the Ishmaalites. If that is to be accepted as truth since that is what it says then what about the verse you mention in chapter 45. I would be willing to bet that if you went back and examined the original language it could be said that Joseph described himself as the one his brothers caused to be sold into egypt. In fact looking at Strongs, there is only one word used for the phrase “whom ye sold”. That word means “to sell” but it does not designate who did the selling. It just means Joseph described himself as the one sold into slavery. So there you go again. Another example of being nore willing to go with what you have been taught rather than actually examining and learning the true meaning of a scripture. This is an example of being willing to overlook a scripture and at the same time accept one that is contrary to the one overlooked. An example of how bias controls our minds when we read scripture. But, hey, don’t waste your time on something as trivial as this.It is ridiculous to waste time examining what is actually the truth on something this insignificant. There are much more important things to study.

      • lol. More important things to study? like what? I know your being sarcastic and it reminds me of how foolish it is to read and study all kinds of other books besides the Holy Scriptures. As Solomon in the LORD’s wisdom wrote: “of making many books there is no end and much study wearies the bones”.

        I’ve practically been obsessed with studying Scripture for most of my life. I was thanking Jesus for the gift of remembering what I’ve read in Scripture and how he brings it to mind at appropriate times. (Like the verse in ch.45)

      • bryan

        LOL Daniel.. you are right. Being sarcastic.. Actually was referring to the consensus with your brothers that it was ridiculous to spend time looking into who really sold Joseph and the idea that their are more important things in scripture to study. Not about studying other books. But did you miss the fact that the scripture in chapter 45 doesn’t actually mean that his brothers sold him? Instead he refers to himself as the one who was sold? Still a great example of bias. The reason I bring this up is because this is one of the biggest changes in my life lately, that I can read scripture without bias and accept what the scripture for what it says no matter if it doesn’t jive with my raising.. another example 2 Timothy 3:15-17. Paul talks about the holy scriptures that timothy has known since a child that leads us to salvation, is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness, that we can be perfect and educated to good works… those scriptures that have all those benefits are the Torah and theProphets and the other writings. That was the only scripture they had at the time. But growing up, I don’t know how many sermons I heard from the pulpit espousing this scripture as speaking of the New Testament. Yet just a little common sense says this is speaking of the Old Testament. Anyway, good to hear you are passionate about scripture. Keep on reading.

      • bryan

        Daniel, maybe I should say too Brigitte gives a good example of scripture being changed in Collosians by adding the word NOT. It changes the scripture from meaning don’t allow yourself to be judged for doing the feast and sabbaths, to don’t allow yourself to be judged for not doing them. Big difference. This is a pretty big example of what is wrong with most of the newer translations. Words are added and taken away to clarify the meaning of the scripture as the translator sees it. Hard to ignore.

      • So you think there is some great conspiracy going on here? I don’t think so. God would not allow it. Have you studied how the extra verses ended up getting added to the KJV? Modern translations base their work on the most accurate and trustworthy manuscripts that predate the ones used as the basis for KJV by many hundreds of years. I just learned that it may not be the Textus Receptus as I thought: http://www.ibri.org/Tracts/trkjvtct.htm – very interesting read:

        “Have better manuscripts been discovered than those on which the textus receptus was based?
        During the three and one-half centuries since the King James Version was made dozens of manuscripts have been found that were copied many centuries earlier than any manuscript used by Erasmus. The manuscripts he used were copies of copies of copies of copies of copies. When material is copied a number of times by hand, extra words and phrases generally find their way into the text in the course of copying and occasionally the eye of a copyist may jump from one word of a phrase to a similar one, and thus omit something or perhaps copy it twice.

        Does this mean that the textus receptus is a harmful text?
        The additions in the textus receptus do not contain any idea that is not taught elsewhere in the New Testament in parts that agree with the earlier manuscripts. The differences consist mainly of repetition of ideas already contained elsewhere in the Scripture.

        Then why bother to hunt for early manuscripts? Why not simply follow the textus receptus?
        God inspired the manuscripts that came from the hands of the original writers. It is impossible to copy a book of any length without making some mistakes. In the case of the New Testament we have more evidence for determining the text of the original writers than for any other book from ancient times. While there is rarely anything harmful in the later manuscripts, it is desirable, if we truly wish to know God’s Word, to base our text, as far as possible, on early manuscripts.”

      • bryan

        Daniel. Nice end around to avoid the example in Colossians. The issue is not about ancient text. it is about the translators adding words to the translation so the translation fits their bias.

  31. bryan

    Wow Brigitte. I did not know there was a discrepency between translations on the verse in Genesis. I’ve been taught since I was a little boy that Joseph was sold by his brothers and that was even when all we had was the KJV. It’s always been right there. Just plain crazy how even though the Bible clearly told us that the Midianites pulled Joseph out of the pit and sold him to the Ishmaalites, we read right over it and only see it as we were taught. It is a true thing that over the past 3 years now, my wife and I are seeing the real truths in scripture rather than the truth according to men. It’s such freedom to live by God’s total word and not have tp pick a scripture here or there. As it is right now in my life I can read the whole Bible and not have to read over and ignore any scripture or part of scripture. This is truly freedom in Christ.

  32. bryan

    Daniel, if I may. I have no intention of offending you. I only want to speak truth.

    I would like to clarify something I believe you are misunderstanding about some things Jim said. When he says the Jews are not the chosen people, the torah not given to the Jews, the feasts are not a Jewish thing,etc., I believe the point he is trying to make is that it was given to more than those we call Jews. These things were given to the whole nation of Israel of which a Jew is part of. Truth is there were many others that were not decendants of Israel that left Egypt with Moses. In leaving Egypt they joined themselves to the nation of Israel and were at Mt Sinai to enter into a covenant with God right along side the blood children of Israel. So the reality is God didn’t give all this to who we know as Jews today, He gave it to the whole Nation of Israel of which the Jews are a part.

  33. Brigitte

    Bryan, Yeshua is so awesome. My husband and I have been on this journey for three years as well. We were in a Pentacost church for 20 years and God just pulled us right out and began this amazing journey! It is so awesome we can’t even put words to it!! Yes, brother, we are free indeed yet Christians say it is bondage. No way!! Total freedom and peace in Him. He is opening the eyes and hearts of His children all over the world! Very exciting.

    However, we have witnessed that those that are in the body of Christ (Christians) just can’t see it YET! But I believe that for those that have an ear to hear and chose to seperate from this world and be set apart, will indeed hear and be set free in a way they could have never imagined. He is calling his people home and there is a wave a holiness coming upon His children.

    Be blessed in this journey brother and don’t ever let the ones that come against you discourage you. Endure till the end of the race my friend.

    Shalom,
    Brigitte

    • bryan

      Amen. We were similar to Pentecostal. We actually left the church some years ago but not the faith. Our biggest mistake when we started to understand that God had not changed after all was that we thought everyone would want to know. But not everyone is ready or will be ready to hear. It is awesome how this is worldwide. We have met some great people in the last couple years and have had to say goodbye to others. One thing we have seen pretty much common in everyone’s story is that they were in aplace where their heart was ready to receive. Sometimes we have to be taken to aplace where we are no longer in our comfort zone and our eyes and heart are open to what the Father wants to show us.
      Maybe one day our families will meet..Blessings to you both,

      • Brigitte

        Ha. yes, we have seen the exact same thing. We are just so zealous and passionate to what he is doing and showing us that we want to shout if from the roof tops. However, people, especially christians, just don’t share the same zeal. In fact, they have become our worst persecutors. We have learned to love them and embrace them as they cause us to dig deeper and press harder into Him. All we want is His truth, his ways, his everything. If people have a problem with that, well, as we say, that’s just to darn bad.

        You never know, we could meet up as he is doing some pretty awesome things.

  34. Shalom, please do not lump all Hebrew Roots Teaching to Jim. I have been a Hebrew Roots Teacher since 1992, and I have always taught that the Torah is God’s teaching, guidance and instruction to lead us to Hs Son Jesus, I.e. Yeshua. We have been grafted in…by faith. We do not all believe what Jim believes. Thank you. By the way, the Church at large is Messianic.

    • bryan

      Barbara, your statement implies that what has been said about Jim is true. And it isn’t. I commend you for having this truth since ’92. I wish I could say the same for myself. But if you have truly been teaching the Torah since “92, you should be able to replace Jim Staley’s name in this blog with yours. Because what the writers here are against is the Hebrew roots. They are misrepresenting what Jim believes and why he believes it. So don’t cuddle up to them. They only wish to destroy you.

  35. Just an FYI for all interested here:

    In my article on the ‘Identity Crisis’ video by Jim Staley, I state this:

    “This page has information that anyone can check out for themselves. I provide links to each of the teachings in question as well as many time stamps and transcriptions for specific issues raised. I encourage folks to watch the teachings referenced in total to get a feel for context and tone. I have no interest in it seeming like I’m trying to railroad someone by taking their words out of context.

    “Note that in the past, once he becomes aware of scrutiny regarding his teaching materials, Jim Staley has been known to have his staff edit out clips that have been addressed, take down and repost videos under different URLs so that original links will no longer work, or mark certain videos as ‘private’.”

    As of this posting (and I don’t know for how long before this date), the ‘Identity Crisis’ video on the PFT YouTube page has been marked ‘Private’. Passion For Truth Ministries has also taken the ‘Identity Crisis’ video out of it’s ‘marketplace’.

    Things that make you go, “Hmmmmm . . . . ”

    Grace and peace,
    -JGIG
    http://joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com/gateways-into-the-hebrew-roots-movement-an-examination-of-identity-crisis-and-related-teachings-of-jim-staley/

  36. bryan

    Excuse me. I don’t “follow” Jim Staley.For you to even say that shows your ignorance Brother. I follow scripture. If the scriptures say it, I believe it. I don’t watch him every week or every month. But I do know he agrees with me on a lot of things. I do not know if he changed any of his videos or pulled any materials. It doesn’t matter to me because I test everything I hear against scripture no matter who I may be listening to. But what if what you say is true…that he changed some videos and no longer offers a particular material….You judge him because of that?

    Show me someone that is not willing to change an idea on something and I will show you someone full of pride and of himself. Is there a believer in God out there that has not changed what they thought about something in scripture at some time in their life?

    Plus where is all the grace and love. If Jim was in error about something, wouldn’t grace still be extended to him? He believes as you do that salvation comes to us by faith through Jesus. He, as well as I, believes faith and Torah go hand in hand. What is it about the Torah that you hate so.? Why would you despise God’s instrudtions for living like you do? That’s what the Torah is. I strive to live as He said because He said it shows our love for him. Remember ” if you love me you will keep my commands”?
    I know you say you just have to walk in the spirit. But Romans tells us what it is to walk in the Spirit.

    thank G2168 God G2316 through G1223 Jesus G2424 Christ G5547 our G2257 Lord. G2962 So then G686 G3767 with the mind G3563 I G1473 myself G846 serve G3303 G1398 the law G3551 of God; G2316 but G1161 with the flesh G4561 the law G3551 of sin. G266

    There is therefore G686 now G3568 no G3762 condemnation G2631 to them which are in G1722 Christ G5547 Jesus, G2424 who walk G4043 not G3361 after G2596 the flesh, G4561 but G235 after G2596 the Spirit. G4151

    For G1063 the law G3551 of the Spirit G4151 of life G2222 in G1722 Christ G5547 Jesus G2424 hath made G1659 G0 me G3165 free G1659 from G575 the law G3551 of sin G266 and G2532 death. G2288

    Do you see that? Paul says in his mind he serves the law of God and all that do the same are under no condemnation because they are walking in the Spirit. He even calls the law of God that he serves in his mind the Spirit of life. Wow. So for myself, I choose to do the same as Paul. I serve the law of God and through the gift of faith I receive life. Eph 2:8

  37. Robert Sengstacke

  38. Robert Sengstacke

    Outside of the moral law, there are many things that God instructed the Israelites to do under the Sinai covenant that were moreso bout driving it into the hearts and minds of the Israelites that they were to be separate and unlike the pagans, and had little if nothing to do with morality. I actually have an orthodox Jewish friend in Israel who explained this to me many years ago. He said things like men growing the locks of their hair like they are instructed to do in the old testament is not something that men by necessity have to do today. The reason why God had them do this was because worshippers of Baal at that time shaved their head. God didn’t even want the Israelites to wear their hair like the pagans so that they would stand out as worshippers of Yahweh. Paul said the Law was a schoolmaster meant to lead us to Christ. Its more than just revealing our sin, and our need for the Savior, the Law and the prophets were also meant to reveal and teach us about the Person, work, and ministry of the Messiah so that the Jews would recognize Him when He finally showed up. We keep missing the point in the type and the shadow when we don’t look at the substance itself, Jesus Christ. Jesus Himself is the Word, the Logos, indeed the Law of God in human flesh. Jesus fulfilled all the law perfectly, and He was Himself the fulfillment of the Law. The shadow of Christ’s sacrifice for our sins is found in the animal sacrifices under the old covenant. Why else call Jesus the LAMB OF GOD slain from before the foundation of the world? The feasts themselves and the Sabbath were shadows of the Messiah and His ministry, and the purpose and point of the Sabbath and the feasts was to point to and teach us about the Messiah like a schoolmaster. Jesus is the substance, the Sabbath is the shadow, along with the feasts themselves. You’re free to observe these things if you want, and I do believe understanding the feasts and the Sabbath will definitely enrich and enliven your faith and understanding of the New Covenant. However, if you make it a requirement for all Christians that they have to do these things or else they are living in sin you are missing the point in why God gave these commandments to the Israelites in the first place about the Sabbath and the feasts, and that was to teach them about and point them to the substance, Yeshua Messiah. Its like if I hire you to build a house, and Im very strict about following the blueprint so that the house looks exactly the way I want it to look and is livable. The Old Covenant is the Blue print, the New Covenant is the house itself, the Father is the architect and designer, so its no wonder Jesus was a carpenter by trade. He fulfilled the Old covenant blueprint and has finished the house, furnished in, paid for it in full, mortgage, bills, taxes and all and says come unto Me all of you that are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest. The Sabbath, the feasts, the animal sacrifices, and the priesthood itself were all types and shadows of the Person and ministry, and work of Christ, and meant to be a schoolmaster to teach the Israelites about and be able to recognize the Messiah when He came, that’s why God stressed them so much to keep the feasts and honor the Sabbath. Before Jesus came the Israelites themselves were looking through a glass darkly. When that which is perfect had come, Jesus the substance, then that which is in part was done away with, i.e the sacrifices, the earthly temple, the priesthood, etc because the Law and the prophets find their fulfillment in Jesus Christ.

  39. Christiana Horn

    Very well put. Thanks for posting this.

  40. bryan

    Wow. Pretty funny video. Funnier yet is that there is no scripture to back it up. It’s just philosophy. The guy mentioned that God told Israel certain animals were unclean and an abomination to them. He infers it means just to Israel and not the other nations as a means of separation. But what was really meant was that the other things God mentioned were an abomination to Him but the eating was an abomination to the people. Why to the people? Because eating the unclean animals will cause sickness and disease. Duet 28. Scientifically today it is proven that eating the animals God called unclean causes low grade inflammation in our bodies which is what causes cancer. You could say that when preachers tell us that all that eating stuff doesn’t matter anymore, they are in reality preaching death to their people. The eating laws are given for our own good.
    It is true that God gave instruction on being separate from the other nations. But not in regards to day to day life. It was in regard to the number one thing God requires. To be separate from their pagan sun god worship and traditions and to worship Him alone. Worshipping God alone was the requirement. That worship also meant obedience to His Word. To walk in His ways. To keep His commands, judgements and statutes.
    There is no such thing as a moral law. There might be laws that were given that concern morality in our minds but too the Giver of the Law He is described the Law as His commands, statutes and judgments.
    It is true that commands were given to Israel that specifically addressed what the pagans were doing. Understanding the spirit of the laws is part of what Yeshua helped the people then and now to do. I think it is safe to say that there are some commands that do not apply today for one reason or another. Whether because we are not in the land or whatever. That is what the Spirit is for, to guide us in all truth.
    It is true that many things in the OT are shadows. But not all has been fulfilled. The fall feasts are yet to be fullfilled . Keeping the feast and Sabbath is not about salvation. Living by God’s instructiuons is what we do because we love Him and want to keep His commands. Remember the scripture 1 John 2:4 if you say you know Him but you don’t keep His commands, you are a liar and the truth is not in you. And then verse 6 says if we say He abides in us, then we should walk as He walked and that we know He walked in the Torah perfectly. So I choose to walk as He walked and live in obedience to His commands. It’s a great life. My salvation is through Messiah and walking in His ways is the perfection or completion of the faith.
    Hebrews talks in detail about the levitical laws and the high priest and what it means today. And how Yeshua is our mediator now. How His sacrifice was the only way to give us life eternal. If any of you think keeping Torah means we think we need to be offering animal sacrifices and such, you need to rethink. That is made up in your minds as a defense for what you have been taught all your life. See; either rthe Law has been fulfilled and done away with or it hasn’t. You can’t have it both ways. Most Christians would say we should keep the ten commands except for that pesky one about the Sabbath. But it is part of the Law that you say has been done away with.
    You know, all you have to do is read Duet and you will understand the purpose of it all. Try reading it for what it says instead of reading it and overlooking the parts that don’t jive with the preacher.
    Robert, you’re just missing it. You have an understanding of what the shadows mean but instructions for living our lives are not shadows. Obedience to His Word is not a shadow. Not having sex with animals doesn’t point us to Christ. Maybe having sex with animals doesn’t matter today because the pagans aren’t doing it anymore but i’m thinking it does still matter.

  41. Robert Sengstacke

    All of the ten commandments except the commandment to keep the Sabbath are repeated in the New Covenant. Romans 14, and Collosians 2 makes it very clear. Things like Sabbath observance, specifically having Saturday as your day of rest is optional. If you want you can have church, worship, and rest on Sunday, and that’s something the early church did and can be proven from scripture and the writings of very early church fathers long before the council of Nicaea, or before there was ever a Roman Catholic Church. The feasts themselves are also optional as well. Hebrews is also very clear on many of these issues. The substance again is in Christ Jesus Himself, He is the Law made flesh. The purpose of the feasts were given by God as a revelatory teaching tool to teach the Israelites about the Messiah and give them a framework for understanding His ministry and work when He finally came, and they would be able to recognize Him. I know now Jesus is my Sabbath rest, whereby I rest from trying to be justified by works. Things like Sabbath observance, specifically the Saturday Sabbath since that’s what that means, Saturday. You have the freedom to observe all of the feasts, and do church on Saturday, and eat Kosher if you want, or be vegetarian like I am. Surely eating bacon and eggs three times a day is unhealthy, but then again so is eating nothing but fruit and vegetables which is why I’m lacto ovo, but eating bacon every once in awhile wont kill you either. Its enough to just have a balanced diet. My grandfather barely ate anything close to a Kosher diet most of his life, he just prayed over his food before he ate it, and died at 87 in good physical health. The other nine moral laws however are repeated in the New covenant, and yes the moral code of the law is still binding universally. What Michael Brown said wasn’t philosophy, it was reality. The Israelites could take of the food that was unkosher for them to eat and give it to the stranger and the foreigner that was outside of their gates.God has changed man’s diet more than once. It all started in the Garden of Eden. WHAT DID THEY EAT IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN?

    * ADAM AND EVE WERE VEGETARIANS

    We know Adam and Eve were vegetarians. How? There was no death until the fall. No death – no meat. Also, meat was not permitted until Noah.

    Genesis 2:17
    but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for IN THE DAY THAT YOU EAT OF IT YOU SHALL SURELY DIE.

    Romans 5:12
    Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus DEATH SPREAD TO ALL MEN, BECAUSE ALL SINNED—

    * NOAH AND HIS FAMILY WERE THE FIRST TO BE PERMITTED TO EAT MEAT – ALL MEATS

    Genesis 9:3
    *EVERY* MOVING THING THAT LIVES SHALL BE FOOD FOR YOU. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs.

    Not only does this confirm that Noah and his family were the first to be permitted to eat meat. It reinforces the fact that Adam and Eve were vegetarians.

    * MOSES GAVE THE DIETARY LAWS TO THE HEBREWS WHICH LIMITED THE TYPES OF MEAT THEY COULD

    How do we know for sure that the laws of Moses were ONLY for the Hebrews?

    Deuteronomy 5:1-3

    1 And Moses called all ISRAEL, and said to them: “Hear, O ISRAEL, the statutes and judgments which I speak in YOUR hearing today, that YOU may learn them and be careful to observe them.

    2 The Lord our God made a covenant with US in Horeb.

    3 The Lord did NOT MAKE THIS COVENANT WITH OUR FATHERS, BUT WITH US, THOSE WHO ARE HERE today, all of us who are alive.

    The laws of Moses were ONLY for the Israelites (Hebrews). So, the limitations on what meats were permitted applied only to the Hebrews.

    * AFTER JESUS’ DEATH, ALL MEATS WERE PERMITTED FOR THE HEBREWS

    Colossians 2:14
    having wiped out the handwriting of requirements [Torah, law] that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having NAILED IT TO THE CROSS.

    Hebrews 7:12
    For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a CHANGE OF THE LAW.

    * IN THE NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH WE WILL BE VEGETARIANS AGAIN

    How do we know that we won’t eat meat in the NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH? God told us so.

    Revelation 21:4
    And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be NO MORE DEATH, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.

    Isaiah 11:6-9

    6 “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
    The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
    The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
    And a little child shall lead them.

    7 The cow and THE BEAR SHALL GRAZE;
    Their young ones shall lie down together;
    And THE LION SHALL EAT STRAW like the ox.

    8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole,
    And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den.

    9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,
    For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord
    As the waters cover the sea.

    Not only will people be vegetarians, all animals will be vegetarians too!

    LET’S SUMMARIZE

    Garden of Eden: Herbivore
    After Noah: Omnivores with no restrictions
    After Moses: Gentiles are omnivores. Hebrews are Omnivores except some meats.
    After Jesus: Omnivores with no restrictions
    Millenium: Herbivores
    Now lets look at Deuteronomy 14:21
    “You must not eat anything that has died a natural death. You may give it to a foreigner living in your town, or you may sell it to a stranger. But do not eat it yourselves, for you are set apart as holy to the LORD your God. “You must not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.”
    Now notice it was okay for the Israelites to give meat to a stranger or foreigner who was not an Israelite that died a natural death. Surely you could say that its unhealthy to eat the meat of an animal that wasn’t slaughtered for the purpose of eating for food, since it could have died of a disease that’s in its blood, etc. So already you see this is not a universal moral prohibition as Dr. Brown made very clear, and you can see the reason why God commanded it, because the children of Israel were to be holy before him. This reveals the real purpose for the dietary laws, laws about clothing, making ones wife go outside of town and ring a bell and cry out unclean during her period (Which you’ll be hard pressed getting a wife expecting her to do that) were about emphasizing to the Israelites how they were to be holy before Him. The word holy in Hebrew is qadosh and it means to be cut, separate, so that there is nothing like it.” Those ceremonial practices are not necessary today, most importantly because we have the Law of God written on our hearts. In the Old Covenant it was written on tablets of stone, and the focus was on the donts, don’t lie, don’t steal, don’t covet. Jesus came and changed our focus not so much on the donts, but on the do’s which is Love God with all of your heart soul mind and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself, and you will fulfill all the Law and the Prophets. Its like if Im walking down the street and I see a sign that says don’t walk on the grass, that’s the Torah. In the New Covenant God writes His Law on my heart and gives me a love for the pavement through regeneration in the New Birth so hat I have no desire to walk on the grass. The love of God that has been shed abroad in my heart after having been born of God is evidenced by my love for God and love for others.
    JESUS GIVES A NEW LAW

    John 13:34-35
    34 A new commandment I give to you, that you LOVE ONE ANOTHER; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
    35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.

    Some in the Hebrew Roots Movement rightly point out that this law is not new. They rightly point to the fact that Jesus was restating something from the Old Testament (the Tanakh). Here it is.

    Leviticus 19:18
    You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF: I am the Lord.

    WHAT WAS NEW ABOUT IT THEN?

    If Jesus’ command to love one another isn’t new, why did Jesus call it “new”? Was Jesus mistaken? Did He not know the scriptures? NO! Of course He knew the scriptures. JESUS IS GOD. Then what was Jesus saying when He called the command to love one another “new”? The answer is found in verse 35.

    JOHN 13:35 BY THIS ALL WILL KNOW THAT YOU ARE MY DISCIPLES, IF YOU HAVE LOVE FOR ONE ANOTHER.

    Did you catch the implication of what Jesus said in John 13:35? Jesus just told us that the law / commandment that makes someone His true disciple is that they love one another. Notice what Jesus DIDN’T say.

    WHAT JESUS DID *NOT* SAY

    * You are my disciples if you love one another AND ABSTAIN FROM LOBSTER

    * You are my disciples if you love one another AND KEEP THE SABBATH

    * You are my disciples if you love one another AND AVOID MIXING LINEN ABD WOOL

    * You are my disciples if you love one another AND WEAR TZITZIT

    * You are my disciples if you love one another AND PRONOUNCE MY NAME CORRECTLY

    Jesus didn’t say any of these things. He made no mention of any of the ceremonial aspects of Torah. In fact, you will not find Jesus teaching anyone to keep Sabbath, or to keep the feasts or eat clean foods, etc. But you will find Jesus teaching against lying, stealing, hypocrisy, misunderstanding the law, etc.

    WHAT WAS JESUS POINT?

    By saying that the defining law which marks a true disciple is LOVE, Jesus was telling us that LOVE IS THE WHOLE LAW and that the CEREMONIAL LAW WAS NEVER REALLY THE POINT.

    CEREMONY WAS SYMBOLIC and LOVE IS THE REALITY TO WHICH THE CEREMONIAL POINTED. And of course the incarnation of love is Jesus Christ.

    Jesus’ point is this: THIS LAW WAS NEW BECAUSE IT WAS THE *WHOLE LAW*.

    1 John 4:8
    He who does not love does not know God, for GOD IS LOVE. [Jesus is love]

    LOVE IS THE WHOLE LAW

    Am I jumping to conclusions when I make the bold claim that LOVE IS THE WHOLE LAW?

    Galatians 5:14
    For ALL THE LAW IS FULFILLED in one word, even in this: “You shall LOVE your neighbor as yourself.

    Matthew 22:37-40
    37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
    38 This is the first and great commandment.
    39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
    40 ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.”

    Romans 8:2
    For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

    Romans 13:8-10
    8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for HE WHO LOVES ANOTHER HAS FULFILLED THE LAW.
    9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and IF THERE IS ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT, ARE ALL SUMMED UP in this saying, namely, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
    10 LOVE DOES NO HARM TO A NEIGHBOR; THEREFORE *LOVE IS THE FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW*.

    1 John 3:11
    For this is the message that you heard FROM THE BEGINNING, that we should LOVE ONE ANOTHER,

    1 John 3:23
    AND THIS IS HIS COMMANDMENT: that we should BELIEVE ON THE NAME OF HIS SON JESUS CHRIST and *LOVE ONE ANOTHER*, as He gave us COMMANDMENT.

    I could go on for days but I think this suffices. LOVING OTHERS IS THE WHOLE LAW. This law does not include anything ceremonial like washings, Sabbaths, feasts, clean and unclean foods, or any other symbolic thing. This law is both real and practical.

    DID JESUS CHANGE THE LAW?

    It sure sounds like Jesus changed the law when He gave this command. Did he? He sure did. The Mosaic law (Torah) became law for the Hebrews at Mount Sinai and was annulled at the cross. Torah was in effect for a specific time and for a specific people. Torah was only for the Hebrew people from the time of Moses to the time of Jesus Christ. Does God specifically tell us He changed the law? You bet.

    Hebrews 7:12
    For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a CHANGE OF THE LAW.

    Torah was administered by the Levitical priesthood. The law of Christ is administered by Jesus Christ Himself.

    Hebrews 6:19-20
    19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil,
    20 where the forerunner has entered for us, even JESUS, having BECOME HIGH PRIEST FOREVER according to the order of Melchizedek.

    The Levitical priesthood has been abolished. God saw to that. How? There are no Levites. Why? When the Romans destroyed Jerusalem, all records of tribal lineage were destroyed. No one can say with any certainty that he is a Levite. That’s OK – even good because we don’t need Levites any more. Jesus is our High Priest administering the law of Love!

    If you don’t want to eat a chesseburger you are free to do that. If I like cheeseburgers I am free to do that. If your conscience is made weak by my eating a cheeseburger, then I wont eat it in front of you, because your my brother and I love you, and I don’t want to offend someone for whom Christ died. this same rule applies to drinking alcohol, eating kosher or not, or not eating meat at all as is spelled out in Romans 14. The kingdom of God is not about meat and drink, its about righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit!

  42. Robert Sengstacke

    And I think you missed my point, and Paul’s point in Roman’s and that is that while the Law is Holy, and good, all it could do was reveal our sin, it didn’t have the power to set us free from that sin and empower us to live holy before God, that’s something only the blood of Jesus can do and having the indwelling Person and presence of the Holy Spirit as Romans 8 tells us. The moral law revealed our sin, and in effect revealed out need for a Savior because of that sin.

  43. Robert Sengstacke

    This is the verse that Dr. Brown was addressing. Its not philosophy, its exegesis.”…and the pig, for though it divides the hoof, thus making a split hoof, it does not chew cud, it is unclean TO YOU(The Israelites). 8’You shall not eat of their flesh nor touch their carcasses; they are unclean TO YOU(The Israelites). The whole context of that is to the Israelites. Romans 14:14 “I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean.” To be honest, we can argue back and forth about this till Jesus comes back, this argument always boils down to observing the feasts, eating kosher, circumcision,tithing, and the Sabbath. Nobody’s is going to lose or gain any reward in heaven over these issues. There are I’m sure hundreds of saints in heaven right now with Jesus that never did nor told anyone that they had to do these things, and whom Jesus welcomed with open arms and said “Well done thou good and faithful servant.” Even if I believed Christians in the New Covenant were required to do these things or they are living in sin, and I don’t, its straining at a gnat. We all agree sexual immorality is wrong, lying, stealing, coveting, dishonoring our parents, and everything else in the moral code of the law, along with feeding and caring for the poor, the homeless, the sick, imprisoned, fatherless, and widowed. There are things like polygamy that were allowed under the Old Covenant that are not allowed today in the New Covenant, along with stoning, etc. When you major on the minors, you inevitably end up minoring the majors and can end up missing the mark almost completely.

    • Brigitte

      Robert, I have read all of the things you have written. This subject, sadly to me, causes such great division, more then anything I have ever seen. People think they are so wise in their own understandings! When really, I think we will all be very surprised when we get to meet face to face with our Heavenly Father.

      As for me and my house, we take very serious the scripture that says to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Our studies, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, have led us to realize that when the laws and commandments were given ALL 12 tribes were represented and that we have been grafted in. We believe we are all Israelite s. I agree with you that the keeping of anything does not get us into the Kingdom, only by His blood are we made righteous.

      Look around you, can you really say that the christian religion looks any different from the world? Do they look like a set apart people? Are they truly living for or even living like Christ did? I have traveled many places and was part of the christian religion for 30 plus years. From my observation all of the above is a sad NO my friend! My family has stepped back from the lies we have inherited from our fathers and sought only after his truth. By the teaching and the working of the holy spirit, we were drawn to Him in a way we have never experienced. He is the word made flesh. He walked it out for us and nailed the penalty and death of our sin to the cross. He should be our everything! He should be all that matters to any of us! If we truly loved him like he has asked of us, if we truly grasped what he has done for us, we all would be on our faces everyday crying out to Him and living a life set apart, worshiping him in all of our ways. We would go the distance in our gratitude to Him and long to please Him and live only for him.

      Just like you said, we could go back and forth till He comes back, but none of that is going to matter. The road is narrow, NOT WIDE! many will miss it. that passage speaks volumes to me as it should to others. We are on this earth to love and worship him and to love others. Only in Him can we know the lay out of what that truly looks like. I would caution any of you to not interfere with the working of the holy spirit with your man made interpretations of His glorious word and teachings!

      All the issues discussed are not and have never been a point of salvation. Therefore, stop the madness. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. We can do nothing but receive Him and live by faith. How we chose to honor him and love him should not offend or be a point of an argument for anyone. I chose to love Him by honoring him and keeping his instructions and commandments to the best of my ability. If you or anyone thinks I’m wrong, well you can take that up with the King when you get there. I’m pretty sure, i can say with utmost confidence, he is not going to say to me how disappointed he is that I did my best to treat him as king and live a set apart life! You see, the freedom in it and the beauty of it is I know I’m only saved by grace and the blood of Jesus so I don’t honor him because I have to work my way into heaven. I honor Him because I get to, because I want to, because he is my everything! I try my best, with His help, to not be conformed to this world.

      When I really stop and think about it, all of this arguing from those of you that come against the ones that are just trying to live for Him the best they know how, is craziness. Think about it, your are arguing and telling people that how they chose to love and honor our King is wrong! Shame on all of you! People such as myself are not in sin or believe in a different Jesus. We are all saved, how we chose to act that out is between each one of us and the King of the universe.

      We need to stop the fighting with the brethren and go out to the real fight. Wake up people our nation is going down the tubes because of lawlessness. We are in a very rapid decline and about to move into judgement. We need to be on our knees repenting for ourselves and for others. We need to be leading people to Jesus for Salvation, we need to grow up and be the warriors he has commissioned all of us to be!!!!!!!!

      In His Love,
      Brigitte

  44. bryan

    ok. I give. You out talked me. You are right. Just because God makes a covenant with us doesn’t mean He has to keep it. Paul thinks that a new covenant doesn’t annul a previous covenant. But he must not have had a clear understanding of what Jesus did for us. Wouldn’t it be a cool thing though if God still meant what He said in Ex 31:12-17 that the Sabbath was a sign between Him and His people and that when people saw us keeping the Sabbath, they would know who’s people we were? And that grafting thing Paul talked about. It sounds like Paul really thought that we are part of Israel when we become believers in Jesus. Must of just been a metaphor. Even that commonwealth thing is kind of crazy anyway. I wonder if Paul ever thought that we today would be living by Paul’s commands. Or if he ever thought that by not repeating something that was in the OT it would be considered no longer relevant.
    Robert. I could deal with everything you said but it would take too much time and too much space. Plus you don’t want to hear it anyway. You’ve made up your mind. The truth is God doesn’t change. Neither does His covenants and promises. If He did then He would be unjust. Have a good day.

  45. bryan

    My comment was to Robert not Brigette

  46. bryan

    I think the reason the people in religious institutions can be so strong against those who choose to keep the commands is that if the people in the religious institutions are wrong, they are in a lot of trouble. They are the ones who are at risk in Mat 7:22-23 where yeshua tells some that had done great things in His name to depart from Him because He NEVER knew them. And accused them of working iniquity. Which actually means “to cause to exist lawlessness”. These are people who had the faith but reject the covenant. James 2:22 is very clear in the example of Abraham as to how we as believers are to walk. Our faith producers the work and the work perfects or completes the faith. Can’t have one without the other otherwise it is dead faith. That whole chapter is about obedience to the law. Every example of a work given in that chapter comes out of the law.

    The commands Yeshua gave were straight out of the law as well. Loving your neighbor..in the law. Not looking on a woman with lust…in the law. Loving the Father…in the law.

    What most Christians don’t realize is that in reality they are just good Catholics. That might make them mad to say that but the foundational doctrine held as truth by the protestant churches has its roots in the Catholic church. It is true that the attack against the Sabbath began before Constantine but he cemented it as truth for the Catholics. As important as the Sabbath was to God, it seems that the scriptures would have been absolutely clear somewhere that observing it is legalism or that it didn’t matter anymore. Yet there is none. In fact the scriptures say it is for us forever.

    You are right to ask what you ask, Brigette. Why must this argument go on and on. Well, it will continue. Paul said to defend the faith. He understood that it was through lies and deceit, through wolves in sheeps clothing, that the true gospel of the kingdom that Yeshua preached and told us to take to the world, would be diluted and twisted and perverted. All we can do is proclaim the truth. There are those who will not listen, who have been given over to the lie, but there are also those whose hearts the Holy Spirit is preparing to receive the truth because their hearts have been circumcised, as commanded in Duet, and the Spirit will write His commands on our hearts as the renewed covenant in Jer 31:31.

  47. bryan

    Oh my. I was just thinking about the statement of defending the faith and looked it up. It actually comes from Jude, the brother of James, the brother of Yeshua. He says to contend for the faith ONCE delivered to the saints. I just realized the saints he is talking about are the children of Israel at Mt Sinai. The first reference to them as saints is in Ex 33 the song of Moses. Jude understood that what was given at Mt Sinai wasn’t just a bunch of do’s and don’ts but was instruction for righteous living to blend with our belief in the Creator. That is why God told the people to circumcise their hearts so they could receive it by faith and live it by faith. The context of the rest of the scriptures in Jude supports this.

  48. Robert Sengstacke

    When Jesus on the day of judgment separates the sheep from the goats He doesn’t say “You didn’t have church on Saturday, you didn’t eat Kosher, you didn’t require everyone in your family to get circumcised, you didn’t keep and observe the feasts and tell others to, you didn’t make your wife sit on the outskirts of town and ring a bell everytime she had her period, depart from me you that work iniquity.” No, Jesus says “I was hungry and you did not feed Me, naked and you did not clothe Me, a stranger and you did not take Me in, sick and in Prison and you did not visit Me……..depart from Me you that work iniquity.” Now remember I’m not forbidding anyone from doing those things I just mentioned, you’re free to do those things if you want, they fall under the category of Romans 14. Also, I am not grafted into the Sinai covenant, I’m grafted into the Abrahamic covenant through the promised seed, being justified by faith in Christ. The eternal significance of the feasts and the Sabbath itself finds its substance in Christ. Its revealed in the Passover when Jesus said take eat this is my body broken for you, and take drink this my blood shed for you in the NEW COVENANT. And again Jesus says He that eats My flesh (The Passover Lamb) and drinks My blood(The Passover wine) has eternal life! This is also revealed when Jesus said “He that comes to Me shall never hunger (eat My flesh) and he that believes (drinks My blood) shall never thirst. The substance of the Passover in the New Covenant is the Body and blood of Christ broken, and bruised for us at Calvary as the Lamb of God. We partake of this Passover when we convert and turn from our sin and put our faith in Christ. Now you can observe Passover, and have a Lamb, etc. and you’re perfectly free to do that, and I’m not going to forbid you to do that, but to say that Jesus is going to say depart from me you that work iniquity over what day of the week we rest and gather for church, observing some Jewish holidays and feasts, and eating Kosher is quit frankly straining at a gnat and not something my eternal salvation rests upon. To be real about it, you cant even keep all of the Law under the Sinai covenant because there is a whole theocratic system that has to be in place to undergird it, you have to able to go to Jerusalem once a year for a pilgrimage during certain feasts and have a Sanhedrin in place. The way America is it would never be possible because of separation of church and state, etc. And no Jude wasn’t talking about the saints at Mt. Sinai, that’s totally out of context. The problem with people circumcising their hearts is that in actuality its God who circumcises out hearts through regeneration in the New Birth, and that is revealed in Jeremiah 31 and other passages and its that circumcision that causes us to love and serve and obey Him.

  49. Robert Sengstacke

    And the word in the Hebrew in Jeremiah 31:31 does not read renewed covenant, it reads New Covenant.

  50. Robert Sengstacke

  51. Robert Sengstacke

    ḥă-ḏā-šāh. =new חֲדָשָֽׁה׃

  52. Robert Sengstacke

    The Scriptures record that the first day of the week, Sunday, was the day that Christians met in the early church. This was only natural since it was the day on which Jesus was first seen after His resurrection (Mat. 28:1; Mark 16:2; Luke 24:1; John 20:1).
    Now on the first [day] of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight. (Acts 20:7)1
    On the first [day] of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come. (1Cor. 16:2)
    We also know from another early Christian document that Christians met to break bread on Sunday. The Didache, or “Teaching of the Twelve,” written in approximately A.D 100 records:
    On the Lord’s own day gather together and break bread and give thanks, having first confessed your sins so that your sacrifice may be pure.2
    It was not until A.D. 321 that Constantine issued an edict making Sunday a holiday, making reference to the physical “sun” rather than the “son” of God:
    All judges, city-people and craftsmen shall rest on the venerable day of the Sun. But countrymen may without hindrance attend to agriculture, since it often happens that this is the most suitable day for sowing grain or planting vines, so that the opportunity afforded by divine providence may not be lost, for the right season is short. 7 March 321. CONSTANTINE’S Edict (Cod. Justinianus III xii 3)3
    Most believers follow the practice of the early church, regardless of the unchristian motivation reflected in Constantine’s edict. It should also be recognized that although Scripture commands that we assemble with fellow believers on a regular basis for edification and encouragement (Heb. 10:25), each fellowship is free to determine when they meet (Rom. 14:5-6; Gal. 4:10; Col. 2:16).

  53. bryan

    Robert, I quote you here. Jesus says “I was hungry and you did not feed Me, naked and you did not clothe Me, a stranger and you did not take Me in, sick and in Prison and you did not visit Me……..depart from Me you that work iniquity.

    Robert, these things are in the Law, Brother. Try reading it without a bias. Everything Yeshua commanded in the NT is from the OT. “Work iniquity” means “to cause LAWLESSNESS to EXIST”. You may not like it but that is what it means. Right now that is you Robert. You preach against the Law. You cause others not to follow the Law. You cause lawlessness to exist! You are one of those guys who are out there whose words are against the Law.

    Brother, we are grafted into Israel. Whatever was given to Israel is given to us. By the way though, since you stress about the Mt Sinai thing, The Sabbath was instituted at creation and reconfirmed with Israel after they crossed the Red Sea still on the way to Mt Sinai. Reality is, even if you say the Law don’t matter anymore, the Sabbath still jumps up and bites you.

    Have you actually read Jer 31:31-34? The renewed covenant is with Israel and Judah, not the church, and it is a RENEWED covenant if you look at what it says. The difference between the renewed covenant and the original is that God would WRITE THE LAW ON OUR HEARTS AND WE WOULD DO IT not like before when Israel rebelled. And it won’t even be necessary for one to teach it to another because His people would all know it.

    Robert, if your heart was open to understanding the God’s Word in the Law you wouldn’t be picking over things YOU think are stupid. Do you realize you are judging God? You mock His Word. He said the commands, judgements and statutes are for our own good and not too difficult to do. He gave them to us for our own good!

    If you can ever let go of your dispensationalism, which is a total lie of the devil, then maybe you could get the proper perspective. God does not change! If something is truth it is always truth. Most Christians don’t understand who Yeshua really is. John says He is the Word. He was with God and He is God. He created all things. Yeshua is the One who walked with Adam in the garden. Yeshua spoke to Noah and gave him instructions for his own good for the salvation of his family. It was Yeshua who communed with Abraham. It was Yeshua who led Israel out of Egypt, across the Red Sea and spoke to them at Mt Sinai. Yesau is the Word. He is the right hand of Power of the Almighty. Yet Yahovah is One. He does not change. If He judged Israel for disobedience to HIS Word why would you think He will not judge you for the same thing? He is a just God.

    Would you please just show me in scripture one statement from anyone that explicitly says the Sabbath doesn’t matter anymore, is done away with, was replaced by Sunday, or anything like that. John says in Revelation that he was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day. The Lord’s day IS THE SABBATH! Because the Catholic church coined that statement into meaning Sunday worship, now Christians think John meant on Sunday. Fools! The Sabbath was the most important thing to God in regards to His people and them worshipping Him and being obedient to Him. Don’t you think if something that important was changed, it would be clearly broadcast all through scripture? I know you love Paul. He proclaimed himself that he followed everything in the law. If you don’t want to walk as Yeshua walked, then walk as Paul walked. You say you preach Jesus and Paul yet you do not walk as either of them did. You are a hypocrite. But you are a good Catholic. Shalom

    • Brigitte Christiansen

      Bryan, I really love your truthful response. I know as well as well as millions of others around the world, who Yeshua is waking up, that it is 100% truth. It is His truth and His truth is all that matters!! It is so amazing to me that I use to believe like the Christians believe, and then Elohim removed the veil. WOW, was it a spiritual eye opener. The really amazing thing about it, no man lead me to the truth, just my King. The only difference is, we made a decision to shut down all worldly influences and step back from the man-made church system, and seek him with all our hearts. That is why we are confident that what you write about is the true words of Yeshua.

      It blows my mind how people want to pick and chose what they want to accept and believe from the scriptures. Unfortunately for Paul, he was harder to understand then some of the other writers but if you put aside your bias and really study it out, you can see exactly what he was truly saying. And yes, PAUL DID AND FOLLOWED YESHUA!! YESHUA DID AND FOLLOWED HIS FATHER!! end of story!! We are to follow Yeshua’s example.

      I believe it is in 2 Peter 3:16 speaking of these things in all of his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture. And this will result in their destruction. NLT

      KJV As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

      Keep on contending for the faith in love and His truth.

      Shalom

  54. bryan

    Brigette, thanks for your kindness. I envy you that your heart was in a place to where you listened to the Spirit when you were spoken to. We were in a place of not caring what went on in the church anymore. Sick of the million dollar buildings and such. We didn’t know it at the time but what it is we saw was the doctrine of the Nicolaitans in action in the church. We were presented with the truth of the Gospel of the Kingdom Yeshua preached by a true messenger of the Father. That was our avenue. Yet I guess it was till the Spirit speaking to us.

    I doubt Robert will bother reading this but if he does, one thing he really needs to understand is that the covenant at Sinai and with Abraham were blood covenants. Breaking the covenant means death to the transgressing party. God’s end of the deal with the Sinai covenant is that Israel would be His people and He their God. He would prosper them and bless them. Duet 28 tells us the promise of blessings. If God can revoke the promises of the Simai covenant, then how do we know He won’t revoke the promise given to Abraham that all the nations would be blessed through his seed, Yeshua. Paul even says that covenants are irrevocable.

    Yeshua spent His time here explaining the Torah. Isaiah received the same message in chapter 58. He proclaims to the people that they were doing all the right things in regards to the commands but they still were missing what was to be the intended results of obedience. Loose the bands of wickedness, undo heavy burdens, free the oppressed, break every yoke, feed the hungry, shelter the poor, clothe the naked. They were doing the do’s and don’ts and even had a good heart about it. Paul tells us why the righteousness of the law failed them. They left out the faith. Without faith they didn’t have the understanding. That is what is so great now having the Spirit to guide us. The Spirit will reveal the truths in the Torah if one is willing to hear.

  55. Robert Sengstacke

    First off, I’m not a dispensationalist. I already gave you scripture you just chose to ignore it. Also, I am not Catholic either, never have been, and I never said people shouldn’t keep the Sabbath, only that it is optional. God from the beginning was giving a prophetic picture and declaration of the work of the Messiah in creation by resting from creation miracles. It was also given in the garden when God said to Eve that He would put enmity between her seed and that of the serpent, and that her seed would crush its head and the serpents its heel giving again prophetic picture of the ministry of the Messiah. You’ve chosen to ignore all of the verses I gave to show that the early church did in fact meet together on Sunday and the reason behind that is because that’s the day our Lord rose from the dead, and the early church had that as a practice for that reason. And I also gave you verses showing that the day of rest and worship is optional. Now, I am not natural Israel, and I never will be, I am a gentile, a wild olive branch grafted into a cultivated olive tree, which is Christ Jesus. The covenant that I am grafted into is the Abrahamic covenant, being justified by faith, apart from the Law, Roman’s 11:17 You should watch the video I posted it addresses everything you just posted, and quit well. Anything that is similar to protestant Christianity and the RCC is only because when Constantine became Emporer and made Christianity the religion of the state and Nation of Rome, he merged much of what was in Judeo Christian thought and practice with the paganism of the day. This is why you can find elements of things that are true in RCC but its mixed with a lot of unbiblical mess as well. Its a strawman though to say that the Roman Catholic church did that therefore everything the modern church believes and practices is therefore pagan, which is untrue. You should read the book early Christian writings, goes all the way back to the first century and will show doctrines like the trinity, the deity of Jesus, and even Sunday worship and gatherings were things that were practiced by the very early church long before the RCC ever existed. But hey if the Law doesn’t change with the covenant we can still do eye for eye and tooth for tooth, we should still be stoning people for adultery, idolatry, and witchcraft as well as being disobedient to parents. I never said you shouldn’t do worship, have church and make Saturday your day of rest, I just said it was optional and gave you scripture to prove that. I’m not claiming that you are Hebrew Roots, but what I find funny is that people in the Hebrew Roots movement are always saying how the church is off and in bondage to the RCC yet in dogma and in teaching they are almost identical to the RCC. The RCC says faith alone doesn’t save you, its faith plus works like getting baprized, etc that saves. I’ve seen teachings in the HR movement that says the gospel is faith in Christ plus Torah observance which this blog itself debunks, and theres a plethora of scripture in Romans that shows otherwise. Torah observance does not make us pleasing to God, the only thing that can justify us and make us pleasing to God is faith in His Son Jesus Christ, not does it make you or me or anyone else anymore pleasing than the new believer in Jesus Christ who just got saved yesterday. The moment you put your faith in Jesus Christ or Yeshua if you prefer God’s declaration over His Son became His declaration over you “This is my beloved (son/daughter) in whom I am well pleased. Do I still keep a day of rest? Yes I do, and I do it in the Spirit of the law, not the letter. In reality some people cant do that, they have jobs that require them to work Saturdays and be on call. I have a friend, he’s an awesome Christian brother, and was my youth pastor, he was a fireman and most weekends had to work Saturday, and I will still say he was a man of God. I’ll be honest I think this argument is silly and again straining at a gnat because it always boils down to Sabbath keeping, food, holidays, sometimes circumcision which is not something were required to do wither, and tithing. If you really believe I’m a hypocrite over those things over against the weightier matters like sexual immorality, lying, stealing, dishonoring my parents, and blasphemy of which I practice none, I guess heaven is neigh empty and impossible to get into, save one trusting in Christ Jesus alone. Also you need to get a grasp on the trinity. Many of the accounts you gave claiming it was Yeshua, like Mt. Sinai, the Red Sea, etc. wasn’t God the Son, the logos, it was God the Father Yahweh. There are some other places in scripture where Christ appeared as a theophany like in the fiery furnace with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and to Jacob at Bethel, but there is a difference in the Persons of the Triune Godhead, One God in three Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I hope you aren’t a modalist.

  56. Robert Sengstacke

    By the way, I’ve read all of your responses, and if you really think I’m a worker of iniquity again I feel sorry for you if the end all be all of Christianity for you is what day we worship, eating kosher, keeping Jewish feast days, and circumcision. The charge is always that Christians who believe that those things are optional are picking and choosing what we want to observe but in reality that claim is truer for the HR follower. Do you practice eye for eye and tooth for tooth? Do you think Polygamy is okay today to practice? What about divorce, is that okay so long as I give my wife a writing of divorcement? Should we still be stoning people for adultery, being disobedient to parents, and not keeping the Sabbath? Should we still make people who are lepars and sick go outside of town and cry out unclean? If you don’t agree then according to your definition of how were to keep Torah you are picking and choosing what you want to keep out of the Torah and the Sinai covenant. Please get back to me on that. Thanks. 🙂

    • bryan

      Robert, you sound a bit offended that I interpret “workers of iniquity” in the way I do. If it doesn’t mean what I say it means then what does it mean? if it does mean what I say it means then I can offer no apology.

      I am not a Christian as you define a Christian. I am a believer in Yeshua the Messiah as the early church believed and I walk as Yeshua walked which was according to the commands. Even in Yeshuas day it was impossible to do all that was in the commands. Why? Because they were under Roman rule.

      Being a believer in Yeshua and what He did for us is about salvation. He paid the price for sin on the cross. That is why salvation is possible for us. You see, faith has always been the way to God as demonstrated by Abraham. Yet salvation was not possible for him until Yeshua paid for his sins. It is the grace of God that brings this to us. It is through faith we receive the righteousness from Yeshua and begin to walk in obedience to His Word. If we rebel in one thing, where will that lead us? 1John 5 mentions that there is a sin unto death and a sin not unto death. But it is still sin. 1 John 3:4 says that sin is the transgression of the law. I would ask you this, if you can’t stand to say eating pork is a sin then what about the willfull act of disobedience? Is that a great enough sin to reconsider.

      So being a believer and receiving salvation is not based on the things you listed like what day we worship, what we eat etc. but rather it is based on faith and then we walk in the ways God has instructed us. And as He said in Duet, it is for our own good and not too difficult.

      But to answer your direct questions. If you will take the time to understand the instructions and what God truly desires and allow the Spirit to show you the true spirit of the laws as Yeshua did I think then you will agree with this.

      Eye for eye and tooth for tooth is a judgment to be determined by the judicial system or authority in the camp or when they were in the land. It is a punishment just as we have punishments in our land. When Yeshua spoke of this judgement, he was talking to individuals who have no authority to execute this judgement personaly but rather when dealing with their brother they were to respond in love, also a command in the law. Love your neighbor as yourself.

      Polygamy in our country is not allowed. Multiple wives in OT times was allowed. God does not command us to have multiple wives, so what’s the problem?

      About divorce. Yeshua was asked why divorce was allowed. His reply was because of the hardness of mans heart. It would be Gods desire that there was no divorce and if people walked in His ways that He set forth in the Law it would be diminished. But because mans heart can be a hard one, God set forth a way for relief. Part of that was to certify the divorce so it would be known to those around. God did not command divorce just a way for the process to happen.

      As to stoning people for adultery, disobedience to parents, the Sabbath etc. Are you saying God’s judgments are unjust? Do you think your level of morality is higher than the one who created you? When we question His instruction, that is what we are saying. But to deal with your question. If someone was to be stoned, it was after they went through the judicial process. If one was to be stoned, it was the people around that person that had to do it. Lev 20 gives the instructions on the death penalty. Verse 7 and 8 seem to be totally out of place. Right in the middle of giving these judgments, God tells the people to holy and sanctified themselves. I believe this was the standard for those who would have to do the stoning. In the story of the adulterous woman brought to Yeshua, He began to write in the sand. I believe He was writing this scripture in Lev 20:7-8. His verbal response to the accusers was ” he who is without sin cast the first stone”. When Yeshua reigns in Jerusalem in the millennium, the scriptures say the law will go forth from there. You can be the judge as to wat that means.

      As to the leper. We are not in a camp. If we were, it would be for everyones benefit that the leper would go outside the camp. In our world today, a leper would still be separated from others to keep the others from getting sick. That is the spirit of the law.

      We follow the COMMANDS the best that we can. Doing them perfectly never brought one salvation and never was intended to and never will. Commands that we can keep concerning our own selves are a given. Yeshua said the greatest command is to love God with all our being and the second is to love our neighbor as ourselves. These are not new commands. They are in the law. He also said all the law hangs on these two commands. They are the ultimate goal of keeping the commands. WE can easily do these 2 commands and the rest of the specific instructions on how to love God and love your neighbor.

      There are STATUTES given that pertain to the people living in the camp or when they live in the land promised to them.These are things we have no control over.

      There are JUDGMENTS that are to be administered through the judicial system in the camp or in the land. Again, these are things we have no control over.

      So like I said before, we follow the instructions the best we can. We can keep the Sabbath, we can eat the way God said so we would not be sick and diseased, we can keep His feasts the best of our ability, we can refrain from having sex with family members and animals etc. There are so many commands that are so easy to do. And like I said before God said they are for our own good and not too difficult.

      It is really pretty simple. People that have been brainwashed by the teachings in the churches over the centuries are the ones who try to make it hard. We just have to remember that God does not change. He could not be a righteous and just God if He did. Grace is the empowerment to live as our Creator desires. Not a license to live as we decide is just and righteous. Think about it. What was sin in the church 100 years ago is not necessarily sin today. The bar moves when it is man determining what sin is. With God, the standard reigns throughout the ages. Most of us would be going to hell today if a preacher from 100 years ago came back to life and judged us.

      Hope this was helpful. Shalom Brother.

  57. bryan

    Robert. I really don’t want to offend you but you are a good Catholic even though you don’t attend their services. you believe just as they do.

    Their is a difference between the early church having meetings or activities on a day other than the Sabbath than saying the Sabbath is optional. There is no place in scriptures that says the Sabbath is optional. Just because the early believers were doing things together on another day at times doesn’t mean the Sabbath is optional. To assume that is just plain stupid. The Sabbath is nothing without it being a covenant of rest with obedience.

    The Gospel of the Kingdom Yeshua preached is one of faith.There is nothing we can do to earn it. If you will read James 2:22 it is a perfect explanation of what we believe is true. Abrahams faith produced the work and the work perfected or completed the faith. It is James example of faith that is not dead. James says that faith without works is dead. All examples of works in the chapter are in the Torah; not giving preference to the wealthy over the poor, murder, adultery, feeding the hungry, clothing the poor. All in the Torah. Once you believe, obedience to the Word must follow.

    Now Robert. We all know that Yeshua calls himself the Alpha and the Omega. Those are Greek words. The equivalent in Hebrew is Aleph Tav the first and last letter of the aleph-bet. Google Aleph Tav. When the translators were doing the translation from the Hebrew, they kept running across these 2 letters together that didn’t make any sense ,so they left them out of the translation. The first occurrence is in Gen1:1 In the beginning Aleph Tav God created… The Aleph Tav is Yeshua.
    Yeshua also named as the one who was, is and is to come in revelation. The name of God is Yahovah which means the existing one or the one who always was, is and is to come. This is scripture. I will leave the debate of the trinity to you and your friends.

    You have to be a dispensationalist if you don’t think forever means forever.

    If I was you I really wouldn’t worry too much about resting on Sunday. It was never commanded.
    I havn’t been able to find in scripture yet where the Spirit of the Law is said to annul or make irrelevant a covenant. The Sabbath just a shadow? Try Ex 31:12-17 God says it is a sign for ever between Him and His people unless you are a dispensationalist.

    All the things you are writing, Robert, I used to preach myself. Thank god I woke up. I only write here hoping another person will wake up. It does pleaseGod for us to keep His Word. He said so. I believe Him so please don’t speak against Him. Please Robert, at least if you aren’t going to follow the Torah yourself, don’t encourage others that way. Even Saying the Sabbath is optional is leading people away from it. Please don’t be the one accused of “causing lawlessness to exist”.

    Love you man.

    I don’t know what a modalist is. Shabbot Shalom

    • Brigitte

      Robert, I agree with Bryan on all counts. I must ask the same thing, Please, please don’t led God’s children astray by coming against His word. I know you don’t believe you are and I understand that as we were there preaching the same things you say. Do yourself a favor, step back from what you have always been taught, step back from what you think you know, and read the WHOLE bible from start to end and ask HIM to show you the truth. Then research what He puts on your heart. Beware of the early church fathers, Paul warned as soon as they were gone, the wolves in sheep clothing would come in to destroy with their false teachings and doctrines.

      I understand your passion and your love for him. We all must be very careful of preaching what we think is truth. If it contradicts the word that is written then that is a problem. You see Robert, what you preach contradicts the word and make God seem unstable and changing all the time. What Bryan teaches makes God firm, strong, stable and just. That is the God I chose to follow. Finding all these truths through his spirit made the written word make since for the first time in 30 years. Oh and by the way, Abraham followed God’s Covenant from Mt. Sinai. It’s written in the word.

      Good luck brother and Shalom,
      Brigitte

  58. Robert Sengstacke

    You guys keep saying your keeping the law as best you can. There’s a big problem with that. The scripture clearly says, if you are going to observe the law or Torah of Moses you have to observe it all, not some or most of it, if you don’t you are under the condemnation that the law of Moses prescribes for those who don’t. I’ll get back to you in response to many of the other things you just posted, but I’ll start with one of the largest fallacies that is in HR teaching, and that is the renewed covenant canard.

    This is a major HR “doctrine”. It goes back to Jeremiah 31:31 where HR “scholars” have “corrected the so-called errant” Hebrew to read as “renewed”, not “new” – a total lack of scholarship. It would be like saying that the English word “new” is interchangeable with “renew” (smile). The Hebrew says “new covenant” [b’riyt chadashah – H2319] not “renewed” [H2318 – mechudeshet] – although they have the same root word, Hebrew is translated contextually. Verse 32 supports this contextual translation as “lo’ kabriyt”, which means “not like the covenant ….” This clearly points to a New Covenant, not a renewed one. Also, in Hebrew 8:8 which quotes this text, “new” [G2537 – kainos] is used, not renewed [G341 – anakainoo]. Some HR Bibles actually have “renewed” in Jeremiah 31:31 and “new” in Hebrews 8:8 and vice versa (smile). I once read: “If what these ‘teachers’ are proposing stands uncontested, then that means that not only have all of the Bible translators of the world thus far been incorrect, which includes Jewish, Christian, and secular, but also the five million Hebrew speakers in the world are also incorrect, and thus these ‘scholars’ can go on to change what was given by God to Moses and the prophets one word at a time.”

    And I do keep the Torah, I keep Jesus’ Torah which is simply to love, its written on my heart, it governs my actions. The Old Covenant Torah was meant to reveal sin, and that our desires themselves are sinful, but it was merely external. I am not grafted into Israel, I am grafted into Christ Jesus the Messiah!

    Here is an excerpt from an article on the Joyfully growing in grace website. I think it will clear up some misconceptions you have about the Law of Moses and the Law of Christ. FYI a modalist is someone who believes the Father and the Son are literally one Person, rather than One God eternally existing as three Persons. You seem to throw a lot of Hebrew words and terms around, which has me wondering if you have ever actually studied the language, and if so where? I’m just wondering because when I check your usage against actual scholarship I keep finding a plethora of error. Anyway here’s the excerpt. You were thoughtful enough to respond to what I said I’ll get back to you on your other points later today, I’m helping a friend move.

    The Law of Christ Defined
    Understand that when a Law keeper refers to God’s commandments they are referring to Mosaic Covenant Law. Those who adhere to the keeping of that Law believe that when Jesus says, “If you love me, keep My commandments”, that means keeping Mosaic Covenant Law. And we’re not just talkin’ the ‘Big Ten’, but also the ‘Jots and Tittles’. Why they pick that covenant law over, say Noahide Covenant law I’m not sure, but it may have to do with their view of believers actually becoming Israel and as such being subject to all of the the Laws given to Her, but that’s another post entirely.

    If conversing with a Law keeper about Law and Grace, one is likely to hear, “So those who are born again can just do as they please? I wonder why Jesus said we have to obey God’s commandments?” This is a valid question and often rooted in the idea that many in the Body of Christ hold to what some term a ‘Greasy Grace’, thinking that if they place their faith in Jesus Christ, whatever they do is ‘covered’ by the Grace of God. (See also Grace or Law? How Then, Shall We Live? and Hebrew Roots Movement – Man’s Righteousness or God’s Righteousness?)

    Is the Body of Christ commanded to keep edicts, regulations, and days, or are issues of morality and spiritual fruits and service – those things which are fulfilled by love, which is a Fruit of the Spirit, not a performance of the Law – instructed to the Body of Christ? Can you think of any commands to the Body of Christ about Feast keeping or the keeping of the seventh-day Sabbath or dietary laws in the New Testament? Are edicts and regulations and ceremonial laws really commanded to the Body of Christ?

    Law keepers will tell you that Mosaic Covenant Law was assumed to be adhered to by early believers. According to them, that was never a question for first century believers, and that in fact, early believers were really ‘a Judaism’ that functioned largely as they did for hundreds of years under Mosaic Covenant Law. In the Law-keeping paradigm, anything that Jesus did via the work of the Cross and the obvious differences in the practices and customs of the Body of Christ is minimized, though Jesus’ teachings to those under the Law and before the Work of the Cross is maximized.

    A favorite reference that Law keepers use in regard to the mandatory keeping of Mosaic Covenant Law is:

    Matthew 5:17-20
    17″Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

    19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.”

    Taking that passage in isolation, one could make a case for the mandatory keeping of Mosaic Covenant Law for believers, because, as anyone in a Law keeping sect worth their salt will tell you, you can plainly see that the earth is still here, isn’t it? And looking around Shifty, you would have to agree, that yes indeed, the earth has not disappeared. Well that settles it then! The Law is for believers today! And to be called great in the kingdom of heaven, you must teach these commands to others.

    That conclusion, however, takes leaps over information about events that had not yet happened (the Cross, Resurrection and Ascension, implementing the New Covenant in Christ, and the consequent indwelling of the Holy Spirit for those in Christ) and inspired Scriptures written to the Body of Christ which did not yet exist.

    From a thread on the Messianic Judaism forum at CARM:

    Originally Posted by ‘Ben David’ (A Jewish believer who believes that all are bound by Mosaic Covenant Law, aka ‘One Law Theology’):

    Why is it achoti, that all you christian [sic] when you want to make a point of the Torah go straight to Paul? why not go to yeshua, as I pointed to you? (Matt. 5:17-20). Where did Yeshua say that anybody, Jew or gentile have died to the Torah? Yet you want us to believe that Paul, who in everyone of his Epistles started with “I Paul, an Apostle and a bond servant of Yeshua….” was teaching against his Master? In your interpretation of the teachings of Paul, you are making him a lier [sic], and a renegade…you need to learn how to reconcile Paul’s writing to Yeshua’s teaching. so far, unfortunately, You are failing miserably…

    You are also illogical, but that is for later….

    Blessings
    Dan

    And a response from ‘CIAN’, a Jewish Christian who believes that believers are not mandated as believers to keep Mosaic Covenant Law:

    Dan,
    Here’s what Yeshua said to His Israeli talmudim shortly before the cross, “I have many more things to tell you, but YOU CANNOT BEAR THEM NOW. But when He, the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine & will disclose it to you.” John 16:12-14…

    Sadly, there are yet those among us Jewish disciples who STILL CANNOT BEAR to hear the teachings of Messiah revealed by Ruach HaKodesh through His Apostles which He did NOT DISCLOSE BEFORE the crucifixion <:-(

    – CIAN

    Indeed the Holy Spirit would reveal much to the Body of Christ through the Apostles, and Jesus Himself began preparing the way for the Law of Christ in John 15. Let’s break it down:

    John 15:9-17
    9″As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my [God the Son's] commands , you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s [God the Father's] commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.

    12My [God the Son's] command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

    13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my [God the Son's] command: Love each other.

    Jesus’ command is what? Let’s look at it in the King James Version:

    John 15:12 “This is my [God the Son's] commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.”

    Notice that Jesus didn’t say, “Keep the Law as I have kept the Law.” Jesus’ command is Love, not Law.

    Reinforced again in verse 17:

    John 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

    That is the Law of Christ! Clarity is such a wonderful thing . You’re looking at the beautiful simplicity that is in Christ.
    The Law of Christ Defended
    “But wait!” those in the Law keeping sects will wail, “Jesus would NEVER preach against the Law or He would be a false prophet and could not be the Messiah!” Wow. I guess they got us there . . . or do they? Why is it that Jesus would have to ‘preach against the Law’ to establish the Law of Christ? Does the Law of Christ in any way contradict Mosaic Covenant Law? Are there not different covenants established by God throughout history? The Law keeper will say, “God never changes!” Agreed! But clearly God’s covenants DO.

    And what about that ‘until the heavens and earth pass away’ bit? If the earth is still here, the Law must be too, right? Right. How can it be that the Law hasn’t passed away, and yet we who are the Body of Christ are no longer ‘under the Law’?

    Also from CIAN:

    Achi, Jews who DIE are no longer obligated to perform the binding mitzvot of Torah — The Law of Moses does NOT die, but those under its mandatory requirements DO die, and are thereby released from their bounden duty to fulfill its deeds…

    Zephania [another poster at CARM] asked me if Scripture says that believers (Jewish and/or Goyish [Gentiles]) are to walk as Messiah did — In regard to Judeo-specific Torah observance, the answer is NO because although Yeshua was born a Jew under the Law, He DIED to its obligations on the cross & through our spiritual union with Him in His DEATH and resurrection, so have ALL believers been released from any “til death do us part” burden of bar mitzvah in Him as well, whether we were born Jews OR Gentiles in the flesh:

    “For while we WERE in the FLESH, the sinful passions which were aroused by the LAW were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for DEATH … However, you are NOT in the FLESH but in the Spirit” (Romans 7:5 & Rom.8:9)

    I never teach against endeavoring to walk in a Torah observant lifestyle (!!!) but I always point out that G-d no longer mandates such for believing Jews, let alone for Gentiles IN Messiah Yeshua <:-)

    – CIAN

    Dead people are no longer under Law.

    Romans 6:1-7
    1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

    5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

    Romans 7:4-6
    4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

    We die to sin, and live in Christ:

    Romans 6:8-14
    8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

    11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

    Yes!

    There is no instruction there about observing Mosaic Covenant Law . . . because sin is no longer our master, we are dead to sin in Christ! And if we are dead to sin, then we are no longer under law. And our spirit has been made “alive to God in Christ Jesus”! Jesus didn’t come to make Law breakers into Law keepers, He came to make spiritually dead people into spiritually alive people!

    Romans 10:1-4
    1Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

    Does the Law still exist? Absolutely. Is it still upheld? Yes. The Law shows the unbeliever their sin and points them to Christ. That is the proper use of the Law. Once one believes, Christ is the end of the Law for the believer.

    Romans 3:21-25
    21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.

    This next part almost seems to contradict itself if you don’t remember that those who are in Christ have a different relationship with the Law than those who are not in Christ:

    Romans 3:27-31
    27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

    And for those who are in Christ love fulfills the Law:

    Romans 13:8-10
    8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
    Like in so many other places instructing the Body of Christ, it seems that if the edicts and regulations of the Law given at Sinai were to be ‘kept’, Romans 13 would have been a really good place to mention it. Instead we see yet another reinforcement that love is what we are commanded, and that love is the fulfillment of the law.

    It is in Christ, not the Law, in Whom we move forward after the Cross. That fact is abundantly evident all throughout the Scriptures written to the Body of Christ. I’ve had a hard time narrowing down the passages to share in this post because there are so many, praise God, but here’s one really good one:

    Colossians 2:6-7
    6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving.

    Law keepers will try to tell you that it is by the keeping of the Law that we are sanctified. It is not true. They cannot produce contextual Scriptures to support that view. To get to that place of belief one has to build complicated theological contraptions that in the end diminish the completed work of Jesus Christ and hold the Law in a place of reverence and function for which it was never intended.

    Please don’t misunderstand me here: I am NOT saying that the Law is not to be revered or looked to as a standard of righteousness.

    What I am saying is that relative to the person and work of Jesus Christ and who believers are in Him, the Law is but a shadow, a fading glory, a weak, useless, and obsolete covenantal system (2 Corinthians 3, Colossians 2:17, Hebrews 8, Hebrews 10).

    We must be careful to not elevate Law to a place in our hearts and minds that Christ alone should occupy.

    What Jesus did matters.

    References to being ‘clothed in Christ’, ‘putting on Christ’, knowing what is right and wrong ‘by the Spirit He gave us’, etc. . . . it is IN HIM that we live and move and have our being – not in the Law.

    The Law of Christ is a Fruit of the Holy Spirit for those in Christ
    A commenter at JGIG’s Facebook page asked this excellent question out of frustration:

    Andrea wrote, “But I can’t love because it is a command – Because I am under grace [and not under law]. Do see how you guys make absolutely NO SENSE?!”

    Andrea was referring to the quoting of this passage:

    1 John 3:21-24 21
    Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

    It’s a great question! If we’re not under Law, but after the Cross God commands us to love – sometimes referred to as the Law of Christ – what’s up with that?!

    Here’s the really cool thing:

    Love is a Fruit of the Spirit as well as a command. (Galatians 5:22-23)

    Though love is a command, it’s also a Fruit.

    Do fruit-producing plants strive to produce fruit? No . . . the branches bear fruit because they are attached to the vine/tree/plant which nourishes them. Fruit is the by-product of LIFE, and it takes time for fruit to be produced. If you are in Christ and are led by His Spirit, love will be a fruit produced in you. If you are alive in Christ, abiding in Him, allowing His Holy Spirit to live through you, love is an unavoidable by-product of that relationship, fulfilling God’s command to love!

    The Purpose of the Law After the Cross

    The Law is useful when it is used properly.

    1 Timothy 1:3-11
    3As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God’s work—which is by faith. 5The goal of this command [parraggelia] is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk. 7They want to be teachers of the law [nomodidaskalos] , but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

    8We know that the law [nomos] is good if one uses it properly. 9We also know that law [nomos] is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

    Mosaic Covenant Law has become the center of the HRM/MJ belief systems, making Christ a means by which to keep the Law instead of the Law leading us to Christ and us living in Him. Do you see how backwards and out of whack that is?

    Some take it a heretical step further, and say that Jesus Christ is the ‘Living Torah’ (scroll to the bottom of this page for an explanation). Making Christ the living Torah is how some in Law keeping streams of thought get around the fact that they place Mosaic Covenant Law in the center of their belief system. By making Torah = Jesus (God), they think they avoid making Torah an idol. Click on the link above to see how they twist Scripture to attempt this. These things are a gross misuse of the Law and that for which it was intended.

    Purifications, Feasts, observance of days, new moons, dietary laws . . . those things served the purpose of separating Israel from the nations so that the Messiah would be recognized when He came. Beyond that, the sacrificial system gave Israel a temporary solution to the problem of sin. The whole of the Law is to show man his sin and to point us to Christ!

    He has come!

    Jesus fulfilled the shadows and types of the Feasts and days found in Mosaic Covenant Law, the sacrificial requirements for both sin and purification, has become our Sabbath rest, and our Perfect High Priest (Hebrews 7-10). What remains? Those parts of the Law that can be fulfilled by walking as Jesus walked – in LOVE (1 John 4, especially vs. 17).

    Again, that is the Law of Christ! John 15:12 – “This is my [God the Son's] commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.”

    And remember that though love is a command, it’s also a Fruit of the Spirit.

    Those in the Law keeping community will try to convince you that keeping Mosaic Covenant Law is how we ‘act on’ or ‘walk out’ our faith. That the better we become at ‘keeping’ Mosaic Covenant Law, the more like Yeshua we’ll be. While that may be partially true on a fleshly level, we can NEVER keep Mosaic Covenant Law as Jesus did because HE IS GOD and WE ARE NOT GOD. Whenever I hear an adherent to Mosaic Covenant Law say that we need to keep the Law as Jesus (God in the flesh) did, following His example, I hear whispers of the Great Lie in Genesis 3:5b: “and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” (See also Identifying False Teaching for more on this issue.)

    The Law was never intended to be the means by which redeemed believers in Christ are sanctified. We are still here in the flesh, and make choices about our behavior every day. Sin is destructive and a distraction from the will of God in our lives, and has real, earthly consequenses. The fledgling Body of Christ struggled with the same sins that we struggle with today – and the Apostles dealt with those specific issues all throughout the New Testament Scriptures. But they didn’t write to the Body of Christ about keeping edicts and regulations of Old Covenant Law, they wrote about issues of the heart and character and service to others and who they were in Christ. What it all boils down to is what Jesus had to say in John 15:17 – “These things I command you, that ye love one another.” Jesus’ command is Love, not Law.

    Romans 8:1-4
    1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

    Galatians 5:16-25
    16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

    19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

    Based on the above, the Law keeper will say, “See, the Holy Spirit enables us to keep the Law!” But I’ve not been able to find anywhere in the writings to the Body of Christ that says that the Holy Spirit enables us to keep Mosaic Covenant Law. I see where the Scriptures tell us that the sinful mind does not submit to God’s law, but nowhere do I see where the mind submitted to/controlled by the Holy Spirit is given the wherewithall to keep Mosaic Covenant Law. I see where those who live according to the Spirit desire what the Spirit desires . . . to bear the Fruit of Love that fulfills the Law . . . where the mind controlled by the Holy Spirit is life and peace . . .

    Romans 8:5-11
    5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

    9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

    Reading on through Romans 8 there is no indication that if we are controlled by the Spirit we will be enabled to keep Mosaic Covenant Law. Nor need we be concerned with the edicts and regulations of Mosaic Covenant Law. Let’s go back to Romans 13:

    Romans 13:8-10
    8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

    If we are loving others, we are not murdering them, stealing from them, committing adultery with them/their spouse, bearing false witness against them, coveting their stuff, or dis-honoring parents. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. If we are loving God, we are not worshipping any other god but Him, we are not making a graven image, we are not taking the name of God in vain, and we are resting in Jesus, our Sabbath rest. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

    Another favorite passage that those who advocate the mandatory keeping of Mosaic Covenant Law for believers is 1 John 2. If you read the writings of John with John 15 and the above and other passages in Romans in mind, the message is clearly one of Love, not Law; Fruit, not performance.

    1 John 2:3-6
    1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep [tereo] his commandments [entole] .

    4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth [tereo] not his commandments [entole] , is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But whoso keepeth [tereo] his word [logos] , in him verily is the love [agape] of God perfected [teleioo]: hereby know we that we are in him. 6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

    “See, it says if we know Him, we’ll keep His commands!”, the Law keeper will assert. Remember that ‘command’ to the Law keeper means Mosaic Covenant Law. Is Mosaic Covenant Law that which is referred to in the above passage? Why would John refer specifically to the work of the Cross and its result – the propitiation of our sins – and though not directly referenced here, the New Covenant in Jesus’ Blood, if he were going to steer us back to the Old Covenant, Mosaic Covenant Law? And what about the word, ‘keep’ used in that passage? Does ‘keep’ mean to ‘observe’ as in perform the actions that Mosaic Covenant Law requires?

    Let’s take a look: the Greek word used for ‘command’ here is entole, which is used in a general sense when it comes to command, as in a precept/principle. When Mosaic Covenant Law is meant, nomos is the Greek word that is usually used. Click on the embedded links for the definitions to get a sense of the differences in entole and nomos.

    Now let’s take a look at the word, ‘keep’. The Greek word used here is tereo, which means to to attend to carefully, take care of, to guard, as opposed to the Greek word, prasso, which means to exercise, practice, to be busy with, carry on, to undertake, to do, to accomplish, perform, to commit, perpetrate (as used for example in Romans 2:25 – 25Circumcision has value if you observe [prasso] the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised.). There are 31 different Greek words used for ‘keep’ in the New Testament, so it makes perfect sense for us to look closely at the one that John chose to use in this passage and how that affects the meaning of the passage.

    Are we really being told by John to keep (observe, perform) Mosaic Covenant Law (nomos), or rather to keep (attend to carefully, guard) the Law of Christ (entole)?

    1 John 2:7-11
    7Brethren, I write no new commandment [entole] unto you, but an old commandment [entole] which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment [entole] is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. 8Again, a new commandment [entole] I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

    9He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. 11But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

    Love, not Law; Fruit, not performance. And that part about “I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment” and “The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning” . . . I sense that it has to do with the Promise given at the Fall. What do I base that on? “The old commandment is the word [logos] which you have heard from the beginning [arkha].” Jesus is the fulfillment of the Promise given at the Fall – He is the logos of God – God in the flesh (John 1:1) , and John 3:16-21 come to mind as the fulfillment of that promise in the completed work of Christ:

    John 3:16-21
    16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

    I see this echoed here:

    1 John 2:8
    Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

    The concept of sacrificial love is reinforced and commanded to us here:

    John 15:12-14
    12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command.

    And Jesus is the Light of the world:

    John 8:12
    12Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

    One other verse from John’s writings that is a staple in the Law keeping cache:

    Revelation 14:12
    Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

    “See! Faith in Yeshua and observing Mosaic Covenant Law! That’s what we’re supposed to be doing!” will assert the Law keeper. Let’s break it down and see if John is talking about performing the actions that Mosaic Covenant Law requires:

    Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep [tereo] the commandments [entole] of God, and the faith of Jesus.

    Again, tereo, not prasso, and entole, not nomos.

    John is very consistent in that his focus is on Jesus and on love (which is a Fruit of the Spirit), not on the performance of Mosaic Covenant Law.

    Examine the Scriptures carefully when someone advocating that believers are commanded to keep Mosaic Covenant Law goes to John’s writings to prove their point, because whether or not they know it, they’re forcing a meaning into the text that John never intended.

    I could cite more examples of Scripture passages that those who advocate the mandatory keeping of Mosaic Covenant Law use to attempt to make their case, but the passages above are what tied it all together for me. Dear believer, when someone is trying to convince you that you are bound by the edicts and regulations of a law Scripture says you are no longer under, examine those passages and their contexts carefully.

    May God grant you wisdom and discernment as you consider all of these things.
    Here is the link to the article if you would like to check it out:
    http://joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com/2010/04/21/the-law-of-christ-defined-and-defended/

    You keep wanting to call me Roman Catholic when I am not, and I gave you scriptures and references about why the church holds to Sunday as a day of worship and gathering together for fellowship, but it doesn't matter I guess if you don't want to interact with what I put forth. I think its just straw man again, but it was it is. You also keep trying to pin me as a dispensationalist which I am not, but if you really want to know my views of God's covenants, when you have the time take a look at this article. Its a meaty read, but well worth it.

    http://www.christinyou.net/pages/otbntc.html

    Blessings, TTYS

  59. Robert Sengstacke

    Just a side note, how on earth did Abraham follow the Sinai covenant when he lived hundreds of years before the Sinai covenant was enacted? And even if he did he would have been in sin. Have you ever stopped to think that Judaism itself is based on a relationship that would have been condemned under Mosaic law? Abraham’s wife was his half sister, his father’s daughter, which under the law of Moses is incest and punishable by death. Just something to chew on.

  60. Robert Sengstacke

    “Polygamy in our country is not allowed. Multiple wives in OT TIMES was allowed. God does not command us to have multiple wives, so what’s the problem?” Old Testament times huh? And you’re calling me a dispensationalist. SMH Just because our culture has a practice that is lawful doesn’t make it okay. God gave laws to regulate some behavior in the Old Testament because of sinfulness and hardness in men’s hearts, doesn’t mean He was ever for it, like slavery and divorce. Its very evident that polygamy has now been revealed as something God does not permit in the New Covenant I showed scripture in Galatians, and Romans about how we’re not to allow someone to judge us concerning a feast, or Sabbath, or in the meats that we eat. The judgment comes in when you proclaim someone as living in sin by such things. Just as evidenced by the Abrahamic covenant and the sign associated with that covenant which was circumcision and not itself something were commanded to do in the New Covenant, so it is with the Mosaic or Sinai covenant. With it came a change or Torah. It was perfectly lawful for Abraham to marry Sarai, and in fact God sanctioned it and blessed it. Not so under Moses, under Moses and the Sinai covenant incest is sin and iniquity. In the Sinai covenant polygamy is allowed, in the New Covenant it is forbidden as exampled by qualifications for elders and deacons, and Christ’s example for husband’s and how they are to love their wife. Christ does not have two bride’s, He only has one. New Covenant New Torah. Even before Jesus came there was a change in the Torah with the Davidic covenant as is evidenced in passages like Psalm 51. Even under the Adamic covenant incest had to have been practiced. How else did we enact that Torah under that covenant which was to be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it. Does God Himself change, or does He who enacted the covenant have the authority to make changes to it? That’s the question that we must postulate and answer. But, as is stated by the Apostle Paul we are under a New Covenant established on better promises.

  61. bryan

    Sorry Robert. I didn’t make myself clear. I was speaking of our present culture and society in the U.S. and the culture and society during early OT times. Polygamy is not sanctioned or approved in the Law. It was acceptable in the culture of that time. So again, what’s the problem?

    You are right that God did give instructions concerning things He would rather see not happen. Divorce is one of them. It was allowed because of the hardness of man’s heart. Slavery was not allowed as we know slavery. What was allowed back then by God was if a man was in need, he could sell himself to someone for the price of his need. Buit even then God made a way out for them to be free again. Every 7 years debt was forgiven and slaves were freed. The slaves had to leave with what they came with. If they loved their master and wanted to stay then their position changed to that of a bondservant and they were a bondservant for life.

    As for Galatians where it talks about not judging for the feasts etc., what it says is not to allow yourself to be judged for doing the feasts etc. The conversation is positive for keeping them. If it was talking about not being judged for not doing them, then it would say for not doing them. It goes on to say in support of these things that they are a shadow and the substance of the shadow is Messiah. When we do these things it reminds us of the Messiah and proclaims His name.

    The scriptures tell us what sin is. Transgression of the Law. I don’t. If you disagree with Almighty on that, then that is between you and Him. Yeshua says that He did not come to judge, yet He would judge, yet not Him but His Words will judge. His Word is the scriptures. What scriptures? Only scriptures they had was the OT. So, no, I do not judge you. The Word judges.

    Now Robert, you keep going back to the new covenant. I guess you did not reads the description of it in Jer 31:31-34. It is to Israel and Judah. God will write the Law on our hearts. We will obey the Law not look the disobedience in the past. So, do you get that. That is why it is a renewed covenant. Not changing the word either. Context has to define the translation of the word to either new or renewed and with context it is renewed.

    Now, in Lev 18 where it talks about having sex with family members, it is talking about just that. It is not talking about marriage. The only thing in the OT about marriage restrictions is for Israel, when they come into the land, not to intermarry with the heathen. Otherwise they would be led away from God to worship the gods of the heathens. And that was what happened. Even if it was talking about marriage, to use Abraham as an example and say God changed is absurd. The scriptures do not imply Abraham was perfect. If Abrahams marriage and Jacobs marriage was displeasing to God, we don’t know. If it was something He would rather not see, then He made it clear in Lev 18. Bit I do not think He was talking about marriage there anyway. For instance. God said don’t have sex with your brothers wife. It can’t be talking about marriage there because she is already married.

    So you ask the question if God changes or does He have the authority to make changes to a covenant. The answer is God does not change and a no one has the authority to change a covenant. Paul is clear that a later covenant does not annul an earlier covenant. If God can change a covenant, how do we know He won’t change the terms of salvation. In Psalms 51 you are probably referring to verse 16. David understood that it was not the sacrifice God sought but rather it was broken spirit and broken and contrite heart that accompanied the sacrifice. This is how the circumcision of the heart was to come into play commanded in Duet 10:16. That broken and contrite heart is only possible if you have a circumcised heart, a fleshy heart rather than a stony heart. Go to Psalm 51:19. David concludes that when you come to the alter with that broken and contrite heart, then God will be pleased with the sacrifices, calling them righteousness, referring to burnt offerings.

    Romans 9:32 Paul says the righteousness of the Law failed Israel because they did not seek it by faith even though that is what they were instructed to do Duet 10:16. They sought righteousness by doing the works of the Law. David understood this explained in Psalms 51. It all fits together. God wanted their sacrifices but He wanted that broken and contrite heart as well. See, Robert, it has always been about faith. Faith is not new. Obedience to God’s instructions is what follows when we put our faith in Him. It is so simple.

    It is amazing how Christians judge Gods instruction as unrighteous as an excuse to not to bother walk in them or even acknowledging them as truth.

    Hope this helped you Robert. Shalom

  62. Robert Sengstacke

    Myth: Zechariah 14:16 is The Biblical Reason for Keeping the Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkot):

    A. Zechariah 14:16 is used by Messianics and Hebrew Roots people to justify the keeping of Sukkot.

    Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
    17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
    18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
    19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

    Zechariah 14:16 cannot apply to believers because the Feast of Tabernacles requires a sacrifice for sin. All the feasts did – that was the *prerequisite* requirement for observance for ALL of the Mosaic Law. Without the shed blood of animals on the altar, no one can observe/keep any of the feasts. This is why the book of Hebrews is so “dangerous” to those in the Hebrew Roots movement and why it is either ignored or reapplied by the HR community or deleted out of the NT, which some have done.

    The feasts were a spiritual “picture”, so to speak, of who Jesus was, what He would do, and how He would bring in the New Covenant through the sacrifice of Himself. So we must not only look at how He fulfilled the feasts physically, but spiritually as well.

    Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
    26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to
    enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

    Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
    45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
    46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
    48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

    It is not necessary to “practice” or make the feasts a “dress rehearsal”. Israel “practiced” and “rehearsed” for 1,500 years and could not get it “right”. They disobeyed and rebelled. They were Jewish and had that perfect “Hebraic mind set” that the Hebrew Roots Movement teaches all must have. They understood perfectly why they should keep the feasts and what would happen if they didn’t [cursed and dispersed]. Yet they refused to do so. Jesus came to fulfill, to accomplish what the feasts and keeping the Law could not do. This is why He is the perfect sacrificial Lamb – for all sin, once and for all sacrifices. No one can do more or “practice” or “rehearse” what has already been completed in perfect righteousness Jesus said, “It is finished”. We either believe that or we don’t.

    Chapter 14 of Zechariah shows the glory of Christ when He came for all men. He is Lord of all. He is the King of Glory. From Him flows the living waters. Those who do not accept Christ are “Egypt” – still in sin. Those who do not accept Him will be consumed by fire and eternal torment in hell [the plague]. People come up to “Jerusalem”, who is Jesus Christ, daily to worship Him and come to salvation in Him. In Christ there is no darkness, for He is the Light of the World. There are so many verses in the NT that show fulfillment of this particular feast – note the spiritual application in the verses below.

    This is what Jesus said on the last day of that great feast, compared with Zechariah 14:16-19:

    John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
    38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
    39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
    9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

    Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
    9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
    10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
    11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
    21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

    John 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
    50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
    51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
    52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

    Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

    Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
    11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

    Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
    23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
    24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
    25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
    26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
    27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

    Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God *is* with men , and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

    As with all the prophets, when we read them we encounter a mixture of both literal and spiritual prophecies. Therefore we cannot take a whole prophetic book to be either JUST literal or JUST spiritual. As with all the prophets there is a mix of the two. And some are fulfilled in the lifetime of the prophet and some are fulfilled at a later time.

    Phrases such as: drinking from the wells of salvation cannot be taken just literally.
    Are we to assume that when God speaks of withholding rain from a nation that He is merely talking about future climatological conditions? If we take Zechariah 14:16 to be literal, how on earth do all the families of the earth fit into Jerusalem? And if some from that country fail to come why should the whole country suffer from no rain?

    It makes more sense to read verses from a spiritual understanding and application.

    Zechariah 11 to 14 seems to be speaking specifically to the time when the Old Covenant is broken and the New one ushered in. However, Zechariah 14:16 is used by Messianics and Hebrew Roots people to justify the keeping of Sukkot. The trouble here is that they are taking the context of Zechariah 11 to 14, and especially 14 to mean somewhere in the future.

    Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
    17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
    18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
    19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

    Since the Scriptures interpret the Scriptures we need to follow the lead of the Gospel writer John, who saw in these chapters the fulfillment in Jesus.

    Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

    John 4:10-14 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. 11. The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water? 12. Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle? 13. Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14. But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

    These appear to have both literal and spiritual fulfillment. An important thing to consider is this.

    Did post Zechariah ( and up to the time of Jesus ) people of all nations come up to Jerusalem to worship God?

    The answer of course is most definitely yes. Zechariah was giving hope to those returning from the Babylonian captivity to rebuild and restore Jerusalem. He assured them that people would flock en masse to Jerusalem to observe Sukkot. We know from the book of Acts that Jews most certainly did flock to Jerusalem for the observance of the three pilgrim feasts and that they came from all over the world.

    Acts 2:5-11 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8. And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9. Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10. Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11. Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

    In Zechariah 14 there was also a particular mention to Egypt. At the time of Jesus, Egypt was not the spiritually dark and oppressive country it is today. Many Jews lived in Egypt (indeed Jesus and His parents took refuge there when fleeing from Herod) and the prophecy addressing them then is far more relevant than to us now. This warning would serve to encourage Jews in Egypt and other nations not to neglect the attendance of the three major feasts.

    As noted above, we see that Jesus himself interpreted parts of Zechariah’s prophecies spiritually, as shown in the Gospel of John.

    John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
    38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
    39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    The living waters mentioned in Zechariah and also Ezekiel 47 are not taken to be actual drinking water by Jesus, are they? When Jesus says, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink,
    He is not speaking of actual water is He? It clearly says He was speaking of the Holy Spirit which all who believed Him, would receive.

    So, when Zechariah refers to rain among the people could he be actually referring to something other than physical rain?

    Many take Zechariah 12:10 to be applied to the time when Jesus returns and when they say Jews will en masse suddenly believe. Yet John applies this verse to Jesus when He is actually there pierced at the Cross.

    Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

    John 19:37. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

    So that part of Zechariah 12:10 was fulfilled 2000 years ago. Many who ignore that these verses mean they have been fulfilled, believe:

    1. there is no need to witness to Jews because in the end they all be saved according to Romans 11:26 and Zech 12:10

    2. the Jews did not have opportunity to know salvation through Christ so “all Israel will be saved” according to Zech 12:10

    3. those who do not agree are heretics and apostates.

    Even if Zechariah 12:10 should be applied to when Christ returns, how does the concept of “they shall mourn for him” and “they shall be in bitterness for him” compare to what the return of Christ means to believers.

    1Pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

    2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

    Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

    Versus:

    Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    How can one love His appearing, or rejoice in His appearing, but be in bitterness, wail and mourn for Him? We are told to rejoice at the hope of His coming.

    Romans 15:13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

    Romans 5:1-2 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2. By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

    Php 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

    Other examples of prophecies that were fulfilled:

    John 19:33-37 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: 34. But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. 35. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.

    36. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

    Psalm 34:20 He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.

    Regarding the prophecies and promises to Israel. Jesus was/is the New Covenant. Peter stated, amongst other prophecies being fulfilled at that time, that the Holy Spirit they received in Acts 2–those of Israel and then Gentiles also–was the fulfillment of the promise given to the nation of Israel. There isn’t another time for the salvation of the Nation of Israel. It was offered because of the New Covenant promised by God, fulfilled in Christ. The promise of salvation and the Holy Spirit was for all Israel and for ALL those who believed Christ, and His being the fulfillment of the promises.

    Acts 2:16 But **this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; ** 17 And it shall come to pass *in the last days, saith God***, I will pour out of my Spirit upon *all* flesh:*** and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: …[*your sons and your daughters is referring to the people of the nation of Israel]

    Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that ***whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. ***
    Act 2:22 ***Ye men of Israel,*** hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: …

    Acts 2:33-39 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, ***and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost,***he hath shed forth this, ***which ye now see and hear.*** 34. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35. Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

    36. ***Therefore let *all* the house of Israel know*** assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 37. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

    38. Then Peter said unto them, ***Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,*** and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.*** 39. ***For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off,***even as many as the Lord our God shall call.***

    Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, **Save yourselves from this untoward generation. ***
    41 ***Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.***

    Here we see Peter clearly stating to the people/nation of Israel that they needed to repent and be baptized into Christ and they would receive the promise of the Holy Ghost. The promise was Given by God to who? “For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off…” It was given to the nation of Israel, and to their children and to ALL that are afar off (meaning Gentiles) and to all who God calls.
    John 6:44-47 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
    It is a false claim that some hold to, that the covenant and promises were not given to Israel “yet.” Or that they didn’t have a chance to accept Christ because God hardened their hearts. Israel was blinded “in part”, because of disobedience and turning from God. The casting away of Israel was proven to have been for a limited time. Otherwise there would be no record of any Jews coming to Jesus Christ. And from the apostles on, there have been thousands upon thousands who have come to Christ–out of the nation of Israel and all nations of the Gentiles. We have another record of this truth, found in Galatians:

    Galatians 4:4-5 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5. To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

    Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    The Scriptures also say:

    Isaiah 49:6 And he said, ***It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob,*** and to restore the preserved of Israel:***I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. ***

    Romans 15:8-11 Now I say that ***Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: *** 9. And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. 10. And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. 11. And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

    Romans 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

    Matthew 21:4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, 5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass. Matthew 1:21-23 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23. Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
    Keep in mind that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies concerning the New Covenant and the Messianic prophecies. The promise to Israel having salvation offered them was fulfilled in Christ. Who will come to Christ – of both Jews and Gentiles – has not been completed in that it is not the end of the age

    Every opportunity has been given to the Jews first, aka the nation of Israel, and then the Gentiles. Jesus went first to “the house of Israel”. But we see He also spoke to and healed non-Jews.

    Matthew 15:24-28 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 25. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs. 27. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table. 28. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

    When Jesus sent the disciples out initially, they were told to go to the House of Israel. To the Jews first, then the Gentiles, so prophecy would be fulfilled and there would be no excuse for not knowing the Truth.

    Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
    6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
    7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    Hebrews 8:8-10 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
    Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Romans 4:13-18 ***For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. *** 14. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15. Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, 17. (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. Romans 9:3-8 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4. Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5. Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
    To deny these truths is to deny Scripture, and the fulfillment of the law and the prophets. Jesus Himself alludes to Zechariah 13 when He says:

    Matthew 26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

    Matthew 26:53-54 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? 54. But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

    Matthew 26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

    Zechariah 13:6-7 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. 7. Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

    To Jesus the ingathering had begun. The time when all nations are gathered to Christ which is behind the theme of the Feast of Tabernacles. Jesus doesn’t consider the ingathering to begin some time 2000 years plus after He spoke those words. He said the time for ingathering of the nations to Him began then. The Messianic age according to Jesus had began. He never mentioned a millennium when then the nations would come to know Him.

    John 4:34-36 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. 35. Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest. 36. And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

    The Feast of Tabernacles and The Millennial Reign:

    Due to many rejecting the Scriptures that Jesus said He fulfilled the prophets, many other issues become twisted. There are many theories about the millennial reign of Jesus Christ within Hebrew Roots. Some of these include a third Temple where the sacrifices will be instituted as “practice” or a “rehearsal” for Christians [who are ignorant of the true meaning]. Upon Christ’s return, because He is the High Priest Melchizedek, He will oversee these sacrifices – some have said that He will not only officiate, but will actually slaughter the animals Himself. More of the millennial reign of Christ includes Torah teaching by Jesus, who will instruct all Christians, who have been outside Messianic understandings, the full Torah and application as well as what the sacrificial system “really means”. The implication and understanding of Messianics is that they will be “reigning” with Christ over “Christians” because they already have fuller knowledge of the Law [although some agree that Messianics will also be tutored by Christ during this time].

    To reiterate, the millennium will be a Torah observant season and practiced to the full extent of the Law – where *all* believers will submit to the Law of Moses.

    The foundation for these teachings is Zechariah 14 due to the mention of the Feast of Tabernacles. It is then applied to the millennial reign, appearing to be a future event at the end of this age. As we have already explained, this passage has been fulfilled in Christ upon His birth, suffering, death, and resurrection. The future Temple is also based on Ezekiel 40-48, which was a *vision* and was fully fulfilled in Christ. We are the Temple of the Holy Spirit. To rebuild another Temple where Christ will supposedly reign is to ask – will the Holy Spirit be taken from believers to indwell the Temple once again as He did in the old covenant?

    To say that the feasts will be re-instituted at some future point completely disannuls the entire Book of Hebrews which explains fully, and without compromise, that Jesus Christ died once and for all – for *all* sin, for *all* time. Christians really do understand this concept, but it appears that those who teach a future sacrificial system categorically contradict this truth. Hebrews clearly shows that Jesus is not after the order of Aaron [Levitical – old covenant] and therefore cannot officiate over animal sacrifices. He is of the new order [new covenant] of Priesthood – Melchizedek – who is the High Priest forever. He completed and fulfilled the old covenant sacrificial system – Jesus Christ overturned it by becoming the Pure and Spotless, Blameless and Sinless Lamb of God. He is the New Covenant, having purchased us by His precious blood. To place His Priesthood on equal status with the Levitical one, is to deny that He is Savior and Redeemer from *all* sin.

    The Torah teaching and observance in the Millennium canard is wishful thinking by those who support that concept. No where is there any hint that Torah will be kept, practiced, or instructed during the millennium. All promoters of this teaching have exceedingly twisted and distorted the Word of God for their own end. The Bible clearly shows us that we will be worshiping God/Jesus Christ for all eternity, not slaughtering animals and studying how to clean mold out of our houses. As someone once said – Peace on earth will reign with Jesus as our King, but the animals will be fleeing for their lives – if one believes this scenario.

  63. bryan

    Wow. Nice copy and paste. Most Christians believe Zach. is talking about the millennium but If you don’t that’s fine. Not a big deal. I totally understand.

    I love the book of Hebrews. It is fantastic.

    Robert, you really don’t understand what the feasts are. They are shadow pictures and remembrances. The spring feasts have been fulfilled but the fall feasts have yet to be fullfilled. Study them and you will see that. They are not for practice or a dress rehersal. I guess I have to say it again. The Law and Feasts never were meant to accomplish what Yeshua accomplished. Told you many times that the Law never could or never would save anyone. Don’t understand why you keep going there.

    I still think you are not reading Jer 31:31-34 where the renewed covenant is described although you quote it in Hebrews 8:8-10.

    So I’m not sure what you are arguing about or why you are upset with Zachariah. But you really need to quit mocking God’s Word by belittling what you think are silly insignificant commands. If you don’t I will quit talking to you.

  64. Robert Sengstacke

    Going back to the incest issue, your saying simply having sex with someone near of kin is the issue, but its okay to marry your near of kin? That’s the same argument I hear homosexuals use when they try to twist what the Bible says to justify gay marriage, that its only referring to sex with men in the place of fornication, outside of marriage. Ill post an article a bit later but it reaveals how Jesus’ teaching on divorce was tied to unlawful or incestuous marriage, because the scribes were trying to catch Jesus in His words because He was in the same city John the Baptist was when He was beheaded for speaking against Herods marriage to his brothers wife. Their motive was to see Jesus arrested and put in prison and beheaded as was John the Baptist. Anyway, I wont go to deep into that right now, Ill post the article a bit later. And you forget that the Law was given for transgressors of the Law, for the wicked, not the righteous. I am not judging God’s instructions as unrighteous, quit the contrary. The law represents the glory of God’s righteousness in the Old Covenant. In the New Covenant we are that righteousness in Christ as Paul wrote “I am the righteousness of God in Christ.” This is why scripture teaches us to not speak evil of our brother or to judge our brother, when we do so were speaking evil of the Law, God’s righteousness, and judging the law, God’s righteousness. Once you are born again its regeneration that produces in you as a son of God who is led by the Spirit of God the fruit of the Spirit which is love, gentleness, meekness, kindness, temperance, faithfulness, joy, peace, and righteousness against such there is no law. This is the simplicity that’s in Christ, being justified by faith, becoming God’s righteousness, having Him identify you now as His son or his daughter, evidenced by being led by the Spirit, which is in turn evidenced by being led by the Spirit. In reality there is only one fruit of the Spirit, love. In Galatians the fruit of the Spirit is mentioned in the singular “The fruit of the Spirit is love” not the fruits of the Spirit are. All of those things that follow love are the characteristics of love, they are the same things that Paul uses to describe love in 1st Corinthians 13. This is the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus that has set us free from the law of sin and death. We can try and back peddle the issue all we want but the reality of the Law of Moses is that you either observe to do all of it and if you break it at any point you are guilty of breaking the whole of the law of Moses. Lets look at Deuteronomy 16 and 17.

    “Observe the month of Abib and [a]celebrate the Passover to the Lord your God, for in the month of Abib the Lord your God brought you out of Egypt by night. 2 You shall sacrifice the Passover to the Lord your God from the flock and the herd, in the place where the Lord chooses to establish His name. 3 You shall not eat leavened bread with it; seven days you shall eat with it unleavened bread, the bread of affliction (for you came out of the land of Egypt in haste), so that you may remember all the days of your life the day when you came out of the land of Egypt. 4 For seven days no leaven shall be seen with you in all your territory, and none of the flesh which you sacrifice on the evening of the first day shall remain overnight until morning. 5 You are not allowed to sacrifice the Passover in any of your [b]towns which the Lord your God is giving you; 6 but at the place where the Lord your God chooses to establish His name, you shall sacrifice the Passover in the evening at sunset, at the time that you came out of Egypt. 7 You shall cook and eat it in the place which the Lord your God chooses. In the morning you are to return to your tents. 8 Six days you shall eat unleavened bread, and on the seventh day there shall be a solemn assembly to the Lord your God; you shall do no work on it.

    9 “You shall count seven weeks for yourself; you shall begin to count seven weeks from the time you begin to put the sickle to the standing grain. 10 Then you shall [c]celebrate the Feast of Weeks to the Lord your God with a tribute of a freewill offering of your hand, which you shall give just as the Lord your God blesses you; 11 and you shall rejoice before the Lord your God, you and your son and your daughter and your male and female servants and the Levite who is in your [d]town, and the stranger and the [e]orphan and the widow who are in your midst, in the place where the Lord your God chooses to establish His name. 12 You shall remember that you were a slave in Egypt, and you shall be careful to observe these statutes.

    13 “You shall [f]celebrate the Feast of Booths seven days after you have gathered in from your threshing floor and your wine vat; 14 and you shall rejoice in your feast, you and your son and your daughter and your male and female servants and the Levite and the stranger and the [g]orphan and the widow who are in your [h]towns. 15 Seven days you shall celebrate a feast to the Lord your God in the place which the Lord chooses, because the Lord your God will bless you in all your produce and in all the work of your hands, so that you will be altogether joyful.

    16 “Three times in a year all your males shall appear before the Lord your God in the place which He chooses, at the Feast of Unleavened Bread and at the Feast of Weeks and at the Feast of Booths, and they shall not appear before the Lord empty-handed. 17 Every man [i]shall give as he is able, according to the blessing of the Lord your God which He has given you.

    18 “You shall appoint for yourself judges and officers in all your [j]towns which the Lord your God is giving you, according to your tribes, and they shall judge the people with righteous judgment. 19 You shall not distort justice; you shall not [k]be partial, and you shall not take a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and perverts the words of the righteous. 20 Justice, and only justice, you shall pursue, that you may live and possess the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

    21 “You shall not plant for yourself an [l]Asherah of any kind of tree beside the altar of the Lord your God, which you shall make for yourself. 22 You shall not set up for yourself a sacred pillar which the Lord your God hates.

    17 “You shall not sacrifice to the Lord your God an ox or a sheep which has a blemish or any [a]defect, for that is a detestable thing to the Lord your God.

    2 “If there is found in your midst, in any of your [b]towns, which the Lord your God is giving you, a man or a woman who does what is evil in the sight of the Lord your God, by transgressing His covenant, 3 and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the heavenly host, which I have not commanded, 4 and if it is told you and you have heard of it, then you shall inquire thoroughly. Behold, if it is true and the thing certain that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, 5 then you shall bring out that man or that woman who has done this evil deed to your gates, that is, the man or the woman, and you shall stone them to [c]death. 6 On the [d]evidence of two witnesses or three witnesses, he who is to die shall be put to death; he shall not be put to death on the [e]evidence of one witness. 7 The hand of the witnesses shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

    8 “If any case is too difficult for you to decide, between [f]one kind of homicide or another, between [g]one kind of lawsuit or another, and between [h]one kind of assault or another, being cases of dispute in your [i]courts, then you shall arise and go up to the place which the Lord your God chooses. 9 So you shall come to the Levitical priest or the judge who is in office in those days, and you shall inquire of them and they will declare to you the verdict in the case. 10 You shall do according to the [j]terms of the verdict which they declare to you from that place which the Lord chooses; and you shall be careful to observe according to all that they teach you. 11 According to the [k]terms of the law which they teach you, and according to the verdict which they tell you, you shall do; you shall not turn aside from the word which they declare to you, to the right or the left. 12 The man who acts presumptuously by not listening to the priest who stands there to serve the Lord your God, nor to the judge, that man shall die; thus you shall purge the evil from Israel. 13 Then all the people will hear and be afraid, and will not act presumptuously again.

    14 “When you enter the land which the Lord your God gives you, and you possess it and live in it, and you say, ‘I will set a king over me like all the nations who are around me,’ 15 you shall surely set a king over you whom the Lord your God chooses, one from among your [l]countrymen you shall set as king over yourselves; you may not put a foreigner over yourselves who is not your [m]countryman. 16 Moreover, he shall not multiply horses for himself, nor shall he cause the people to return to Egypt to multiply horses, since the Lord has said to you, ‘You shall never again return that way.’ 17 He shall not multiply wives for himself, [n]or else his heart will turn away; nor shall he greatly increase silver and gold for himself.

    18 “Now it shall come about when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, he shall write for himself a copy of this law on a scroll [o]in the presence of the Levitical priests. 19 It shall be with him and he shall read it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear the Lord his God, [p]by carefully observing all the words of this law and these statutes, 20 that his heart may not be lifted up above his [q]countrymen and that he may not turn aside from the commandment, to the right or the left, so that he and his sons may continue long in his kingdom in the midst of Israel.

    Tell me how you observe to keep these commandments to the letter, every last jot and tittle as the Law of Moses commands and how this accords with the New Testament.

    • K

      Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

      This is the ONLY verse I will be sending to you.

      It could NOT GET ANY CLEARER.

      YAHUSHUA COMMANDS us to DO HIS COMMANDMENTS. And HIS Father’s COMMANDMENTS are the SAME as HIS.

      And if you DON’T, then you DON’T ENTER HEAVEN!

      BELIEVE WHAT IT SAYS!

      STOP EXPLAINING IT AWAY!

      Do you truly have the SPIRIT of GOD?

  65. bryan

    Robert, you don’t want to hear. If I am wrong, I will still enter the gates wearing white robes of righteous acts per Revelations. If you are wrong you will have lot of splaneing [explaining] to do. Good luck. But like I said you don’t want to hear so I’m done. Bye.

  66. Robert Sengstacke

    I’ve already shown you in the Hebrew how it nowhere says renewed covenant, I guess going to the original languages and their contextual meanings doesn’t matter. Galatians two, as I’ve been saying all along is open ended. You can choose to practice the feasts or not. We have liberty concerning those things. What we don’t have the right to do is to either forbid someone to do that who freely chooses to, nor do we have the right to tell people they are living in sin if they don’t. I’ve been on your side of the argument as well, and have since become more balanced. I would never tell a gentile Christian that they have to observe the feasts, eat kosher, get circumcised, and observe Saturday as their day of rest. I’ve already exhaustively made my case that the law of Moses served as a schoolmaster in order to reveal and lead us to Christ, and reveal His Person, work, and ministry. The law of Moses was like a Mirror revealing our sin and how exceedingly sinful we are and our need for a Redeemer. You can call me lawless all day and a worker of iniquity, I will say of a certainty I am not, I am a new creature in Christ Jesus, and because of that all old things have passed away and behold all things in me have become new. The evidence of that is that I have new desires. I no longer desire to smoke, to curse, to commit sexual immorality, to blaspheme and I was the chief of blasphemers at one time in my life. I have no more desire to lust in my heart for women, and if I do the convicting power of the Holy Spirit always leads me into repentance. That’s in 1st John in the NASB “He that is born of God does not practice sin, for God’s seed remains in him so that he cannot sin.” After 100 hours of listening to Messianic teachings and readings can I say that I have any strong conviction to be observing the feasts, eating Kosher, observing the Sabbath, and getting circumcised? To be honest with you I have to say no I don’t. This is what it is to be led by the Spirit. But hey, if I ever meet you and we go to Wendy’s, because you have a weak conscience about it, I wont order a Baconator in front of you, why should I want to offend my brother for whom Christ died? Same reason I wont drink beer in front of another brother that has a weak conscience about alcohol. All things in moderation. That’s the royal law of love at work in my members, the law of Christ that has been shed abroad in my heart in Christ. The kingdom of God is not about meat and drink but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. Shalom my friend.

    • K

      The Hebrew word “chadash” when used as a verb has been translated as “renewed” in various places of the Bible.

      Furthermore, even though the noun “chadash” doesn’t explicitly mean “renewed” but “new”, the idea is still hidden in the word.

      Here is an example. When a “New Moon” occurs is a whole NEW Moon created and replaces the old moon that is in the sky? Obviously not. It’s called a “New Moon” but the same moon has been refreshing or renewing itself every cycle.

      The idea that the “New” Covenant completely REPLACES GOD’s TORAH is a lie.

    • K

      The TORAH is the CONSTITUTION of the KINGDOM.

      The SPIRIT of GOD is sent to those who OBEY HIM.

      Now you claim “walking in the SPIRIT” overrides GOD’s LAW.

      Walking in the SPIRIT ALWAYS CONFIRMS GOD’s LAW. Walking in the SPIRIT NEVER CONTRADICTS the LAW of GOD. This is true Grace, to deny ungodliness. What is ungodliness? Anything contrary to the TORAH!

  67. Robert Sengstacke

    We are both going to have robes of righteousness brother, but its not going to be because of legalistic Torah observance, its only by faith in Christ that righteousness can be accredited to you, me or anyone else, that’s the Gospel that was first revealed to Abraham, justification by faith, not while in circumcision was Abraham called righteous, but while in uncircumcision. By grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ Jesus alone, as taught by scripture alone, to the glory of God alone, Amen!

    • K

      Faith isn’t defined by you. The TORAH is the dictionary for all things.

      Holiness is defined by the TORAH. Love is defined by the TORAH.

  68. Well I respect your wasted words, but I have tested everything. I can tell you since I have heard theses teachings NOW the bible makes sense!! I too was in a mainstream name it claim it blab it grab it movement, and I have been in some well intended churches but everyone of them did not provide the answers in any way about ANYTHING at all. This just proves you don’t seriously compare the scriptures because if you did you would see that he is right on and provided some real MEAT and not all this garbage that these so called FALSE teachers are putting out there. Talk about the little seed that gets implanted, all you numbskulls ever come up with is the ‘LEGALISM’ card because that’s all you know. All of you use that same excuse. Let me challenge you to put it to the test. When you walk the love walk and that’s all it really amounts to and you do the SIMPLE commandments of the Torah not only do you understand the Bible better and of course God, but you will find that God makes himself real because you made the choice on your own to hold hands with your father and He walks with you and of course tells you where you need improvement but all of a sudden you have your needs met without even asking….let’s see where is that scripture? The truth be known you’re LAZY and don’t want to do any sort of discipline on your flesh. It’s easier to believe a LIE so you let Jesus do all the work for you while you eat drink and be merry! Those that call it LEGALISM are ignorant and lazy because they haven’t even tried to see the relationshiip one can have with God, and trust me it’s beautiful! You’re young and immature and surely have not experienced the truth. But you are WRONG! NOT EVERYONE WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN…..READ IT FOR YOUR SELF.

  69. I once was blind but now I see

  70. K

    All you have are Scriptures used as “proof” misapplied and misinterpreted as our fathers have done for generations.

    Religious bondage combined with self-will leads you to write an article not written under the Power of the SPIRIT of GOD because I know by experience the supernatural Power GOD has given me by keeping the TORAH.

    All you have are words. You are just a man. Your words will perish with you when you die. GOD’s WORD endures forever. The true intention of HIS WORD will be revealed, not manmade doctrine.

    Stop elevating manmade doctrine over the plain reading of the text (combined with historical and grammatical context).

    Why are you so passionate about fighting against GOD’s LAW? The wicked have always hated Obedience to Holiness. This has never changed. Could it be you are making compromises in your life? Examine your life.

    You will never understand the Brit Chadashah without the SPIRIT and TORAH (and even better with a Jewish mindset).

    Scriptures may come into your mind to defend LAW-less-ness, but it is you who are calling good evil and evil good by misinterpreting random verses.

    The TORAH is the Standard. YAHUSHUA is the Living TORAH. You need to repent. Turn quickly. This is not a game. GOD will prove that I am correct, and more importantly, the correct interpretation of HIS WORD when you meet HIM.

    I have not and qill not quote verses. Anyone can read the Bible, and anyone can quote from it. I will not throw pearls on the ground so someone can just trample on them.

    Every single verse used to support doctrines of LAW-less-ness is easily corrected. But the question is, do you have a teachable spirit?

    Do you do what you want when you want?

    Stop playing games. Stop playing music and Worship the Most High.

  71. NANCY PRYOR

    I CONCUR,THE ONLY AREA IN WHICH I DO AGREE WITH JIM STAYLEY IS THAT CHRISTMAS AND EASTER ARE PAGAN HOLIDAYS JUST AS THE EARLY CHURCH DID UNDERSTAND THAT.

  72. God bless you for the work you are doing. I never knew this Jim Staley until today as i found youtube video. Listening to him for a little while, i could grieve over what wrong doctrines he is spreading. He even believes evolution. He has such a poor understanding of scriptures. He even thinks we will only be true sons of God after the second coming. we might not undo all the wrong he is doing, but lets keep spreading the right knowledge

  73. Irish cowboy

    Where does the Word tell us to no longer keep the feast/Holy Days? Where does it say that pork is clean? I am talking biologically clean, believe me, pork is flat out nasty, it has drain ports in each leg so poison can drain from its body… Where does the Word say the laws can be ignored, or not taught about? The Word also tells us that if we can not handle. The small thing of this earth, how are we expecting to judge the angels…… Where does it say we can live in filth and still expect to see The Kingdom Of Heaven……
    Christ taught us that WHEN we judge, do so righteously….. Not that we are not to judge…… The Word Of God IS THE JUDGE! By what measure you use, that is the measure to be used to judge you…..

    Personally, I would like to see banks close on Saturday and Sunday…plan ahead. I would like to see all businesses close on Sunday, save for emergency services, and those set up so the same people are not always working during that time.
    We have become so polliticay correct, we have lost sight of the truth…. Mist people professing to be Christian HAVE NOT READ, MUCH LESS STUDIED to show thy self approved.,.. Most do not tithe, yet, if all would tithe, there would be no need for social services, department if human services, welfare, social security, building funds, or mission fund raisers…

    Of those that do tithe their income, the majority do not even come close to tithing their time……love the Lord Your God with……..ALL YOUR MIGHT, meaning with EVERYTHING YOU HAVE, MONEY, GOODS, TIME(Approx 2.5 hours a day). ..
    Most are lucky to squeeze 2.5 hours a week at best…
    How does a person build a relationship? Spend time with the person you are wishing to build it with….. Get to know what the other likes and dislikes…
    For instance, YHWH cannot stand sin, so, to be in His Presence, sin has got to be washed off…… As with me, perfume is almost deadly to me, poison, so to be around me it must be washed off….. You can not build a friendship with me wearing heavy perfume, I will reject yo…. Just as YHWH will reject anyone covered in sin…
    Ask Him, and He will turn on the shower and wash that sin right down the drain…. Just ask…

    We are to repent of it, and stay clean, if the wings of a plane are dirty, it can not fly….. If our wedding garment is spotted, we can not fly out of here to attend the wedding feast if The Lamb… Those with would wedding garments will be cast out…

    Judge righteously, do not be condemning, that is Satan’s job, he don’t need any help doing that….. Unless a person is an eye witness, they can not even testify for or against….

  74. James E

    Identity crisis is more to do with who we are in Jesus now that we are “new creations”… the entire discussion barely eludes to this “new creation” we are made into as we choose Jesus… New Creation that is, as He IS BY Spirit of the Father…

    Our ROOTS and our foundation may have con from that tree and basis that is Hebrew -we are admonished to honor that, BUT the tree we are, the building we are, has grown up and beyond that… taking its identification as All New Creation New Creature… it is here being that NEW Person we gain NEW Identity NEW position with Father in Christ wherein lies the true course of thought… it is CHRIST Identity we take on…

    to make the Hebrew ancestry the entire cause, the entire reason to identify with is akin to placing NEW wine into old wineskin containers… New Creation is for New Wine life of living as whole Spirits… just a few things to further consider for discussions…

    • bryan

      The problem, James, is that you forget that Yeshua is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and is the covenant maker all through the Bible. Hebrews says that a more recent covenant does not negate an older one. Besides, the scriptures do not say we are new creations, but rather we are new CREATURES. Big difference. It really could be just said we are a new THING when we come to Christ. It is no different becoming a new creature now than it was before. It is by faith. It has always been by faith… and so what is it that happens when you become a new creature? Shouldn.t it be your walk that changes? You quit walking in sin and begin to walk in the ways of God, set forth in scripture. That is what He asks us to do when we come to Him. WE want to be followers of Him, then we should walk in His ways. 2 Timothy 3:16 ALL scripture is by inspiration of God, good for doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness. Well, one little thing we forget is that when this was written, scripture meant the Old Testament. So you could actually read it like this. ALL of the Old Testament is by inspiration of God, good for doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness. Go there to learn how to live.

  75. James E

    Bryan:

    1] My contention does not preclude Y’shua as God [part of the Godhead -as in, Father Y’shea {Word}, Holy Spirit] to the 3 -Abraham Isaac and Jacob [founding creation to faith]…

    2] Father by the blood of the Word did make all covenants with mankind [he also made covenants with creature-kind and earth-kind commonly referred to as promises]…

    3] creatures and creations and create of the same root word… translation choice of ‘creations’ or ‘creatures’ is hair-slipping… are made ALL NEW by His Works… this NEW Creation Creature status made us all In Christ His sons There fore the single aspect of my contention, we are of the Christ Identity NOT the hebrew identity as thoroughly exhaustively explained in the original text of this blog thread…

    4] the rest of your response goes off in another tangent… as I was specific to the discussion of IDENTITY… I am In Christ and as such all those other issues are a parts and pieces of life as a new creation… the saying: I think therefore I am; I Believe therefore I am; I am as He is…

    5] as such do not dispute the rest of the comment… my comment only dealt with the question of Identity not the validity of the other stuff… never implied the old testament did not matter… it matters from the viewpoint we are NOW New Creations looking/ seeing back with clearer insights and understandings at the old testament [old covenant, old ways, old time] but look-n-see what is ahead in the NEW testament seeing them as a whole in Christ…

    A tree gets its identity from its foliage and trunk… I can splice and join a maple tree to apple tree root ball its still a maple tree… so it is with Israel is our roots we are spliced into, grafted into, it yet it is a new sort of tree to grow from it -the root ball…

    • bryan

      Brother, that is good philosophy but it isn’t scriptural. Just as the Son came to call us back to the Father and to be rightous, it is He who was present to make the covenant. You see, it was the covenant maker who had to die in order for those who were divorced to be brought nigh once again. The covenant with Abraham and at Mt Sinai were covenants of blood and when they were broken, blood had to be shed. John says Yeshua is the Word. But if you want to say the covenants are from the Father, that is ok because they are One.
      The difference between the words creation and creature is not “hair-slipping” at all. There is a completely different word in the scriptures for creation. Creation gives the idea of something out of nothing. That is not us. We are new creature. We are a new person In Messiah.
      The truth of the matter is this. Our roots are Hebrew. The identity of the Messiah is Hebrew. It is only a TERM.It is not a statement of faith. It is how Abraham was identified. You could say our roots are Abrahamic. It is all only a term. If you identify with Messiah, then you must identify with the Abrahamic promises. And if you do that, you must identify with all the covenants given to man by the same covenant maker. Hebrews makes the statement that a more recent covenant does not negate an older covenant. Thus you have the TERM Hebrew roots. It is not a new faith. It is the Abrahamic faith spoken of in James 2. Abrahams faith produced the work of obedience to the word and the work perfected or completed the faith. Faith without works of obedience is a corpse. It cannot benefit you in any way. That means no eternal life. And works without faith and you have legalism.
      As to the grafting you mention. All I know is what the scriptures say. And that is that we are grafted into Israel, we join the commonwealth of Israel and it is the same tree from which some of the original branches were broken off. The root of that tree is Messiah. That is the proof that it is Messiah who was present to be the covenant maker. I’m sorry, but I have not seen any mention of another tree with another root ball.

    • Wow, another great comment. I appreciate you!

      • bryan

        Hi Daniel. Hope you are doing well. I give my grandson this blessing when he spends the night with us. May the blessings of Ephraim and Manasseh be upon you. Which means May Yahovah know you and may you know Yahovah. So I give that same blessing to you today. Amen

      • I wish I knew where you were coming from or whether I could trust you to more fully receive this blessing… of course Im puzzled why you didn’t just start with the latter and leave out the former part of it. This was my first impression. sorry if it disappointed you.

      • bryan

        [chuckling] Nothing to fear. It is the Word of God!

        Gen 48:16
        The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

        This is the blessing Israel gave to Ephraim and Manasseh when he took them to himself as adopted sons. This verse is a picture of our redemption [redeemed me from all evil] and our own adoption as sons to the Father as Paul spoke of. It is a picture of us receiving His name so He knows us and so that we know Him. And that all we do in His name is fruitful.

        Gen 48:20
        And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

        This is the first part that I spoke to you. It is Israel prophesying that the blessing he spoke to his adopted sons would be repeated to the future sons of Israel. Amen

  76. Colleen Knudsen

    I could not even read this whole thing. But one thing stuck out at me, ” Imagine that, God breaking fellowship with you because you had a ham sandwich!”
    Wow! It is not about what we think but God1 Isaiah 66

    15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

    16 For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many.

    17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine’s flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord.

    18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

    19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

    20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord.

    21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord.

    22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

    23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

    24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

    • Yes, and I love how that chapter in Isaiah ends, don’t you? It gives me the warm fuzzies all over and reminds me of that song, “warm kitty, soft kitty, little ball of fur, happy kitty, sleepy kitty, purr purr purr”.

      Well done, you have exposed my ignorance and lies… except, you are forgetting one thing. The New Testament.

      Peter in Acts 10:

      “But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance; and he saw the sky opened up, and an object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air. A voice came to him, “Get up, Peter, kill and eat!” But Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean.” Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.” Acts 10 NASB

      Interesting, but does it necessarily prove anything? hmmm… well let’s keep digging.

      18And He (Jesus) said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, 19because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?” (Thus He declared all foods clean.) Mark 7 NASB

      Well, there you have it. Jesus himself declaring all foods clean.

      So yes Colleen, it doesn’t matter what I think. I wasn’t making my argument based o logic but the Word of God. If you do find somewhere in any of my writing that I do that, let me know and I will publicly apologize and change it.

      • bryan

        Daniel, quit being so ignorant. Read Acts 10:28. Peter tells us there how he interprets the vision. In fact there are 2 words used in the vision, common and unclean. We know what unclean means. Common means defiled. Defiled because something created clean came in contact with something created unclean; thus defiled and not to be touched. That was NOT a law from the Torah. It was a law made up from men. Read Acts 10:15. The statement from God to Peter was to not call anything common. He did NOT say don’t call anything unclean. Do you see it? Or do you choose to be blind?

        As to your reference in Mark. Read Matthew’s account. Go to Matthew 15:20. Jesus himself concludes the matter. he says to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man. The accusations from the religious leaders were that his disciples were not washing their hands before they ate. This is NOT from the law. It was their man made law, in fact they call it that themselves in verse 2. Are you so unlearned that you do not know the statement that says “thus he declared all foods clean” is in parenthesis and means it was added by the translators? Do you not KNOW that? And if you do why do you try to mislead the people? For your own end? To support your false statements? I fear for you.

      • Brigitte

        Daniel, I agree with Bryan, Stop being so darn ignorant! I’m tired of “Christians” who keep telling people that the old testament is done away with. I use to be patient with you all but time is short folks, WAKE THE HECK UP!! Stop being led around by man and living in a delusion. I could give tons of scripture but it is of no use. This sight has been up for a long time and the scriptures of truth have not moved you to stop fighting and start studying to show yourself approved. It is a constant battle back and forth. I understand you feel that you are taking a stand for truth and you are passionate about it but seriously Daniel, what you preach is not truth and it is a different Jesus then the one of the bible. IF and ONLY IF, one takes the time to really dig and study, do you see it and get the revelation. The bible defines itself from cover to cover. IT is one continuous book. God himself says he never changes so why do you all keep saying he’s changed?? Stop, He didn’t, end of story. He said himself, “My people perish for lack of knowledge” and the scariest scripture is when He says, ” Get away from me, I never knew you” He is talking to church people, people that prophecy in His name, that cast out demons, that heal the sick. Our Savior is telling them He never knew them because WHY…He says because they are those who practice LAWLESSNESS-that’s why!!!! So what law is He talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????? Take the blinders off and go back to the beginning. Again, as it has been said to you many times, we are not saved by the law or justified by it. We are saved by Jesus/ Yeshua and the blood. We walk out the law like he showed us to because we love him and they are instructions He gives us for our good.

        Just stop and look around you, we are in a complete lawlessness nation. We have over stepped the boundaries and it started thousands of years ago. Lawlessness abounds and it starts in the “Christian Home” Why, because they have been fed the spoonful of lies that tells them they are free. Stupid!! They are free, free from the chains of hell and judgement. Free to live eternity with our King. Not free from the law and free to do whatever they want. Biggest lie and deception the enemy has ever told. Which hopefully you have enough sense to understand that is the devil’s end game. Divide and conquer the body of Christ from God’s own truth. Also, to keep us all in a delusion of lies so we never discover the real truth. Satan knows once we do, it’s over. If Satan deceived Adam, Gods very own first creation of man, then what in world makes you think Satan can’t deceive you or any of us! We have to pull our heads out of the bubble and really start to dig into His truth.

        Sorry if this sounds so harsh but enough is enough. I won’t banter back and forth as I did that with you a few years ago. So have many others have as well. Just stop and audit what you have been taught and know that there is more to the story then what you think you know. Honestly, there is more to the story then what any of us know. We will forever be learning and on a quest for truth until we are face to face with Him. When we think we know it all and have all the answers (except for Jesus being the only way and the gift of eternal life)then we may be in trouble. He is deep, very deep, and it takes a life time to study and learn his ways. That is why he told His people to teach His commandments everyday to their children, to write them and to know them. It’s a quest for truth, jump on board, you won’t be disappointed.

      • bryan

        Well spoken. The line is being drawn. The time is coming and is near when Christians will no longer be able to sit on the fence and use what is good to justify evil. The choice will have to be made to love the truth or love their religion. Watched the old movie Joan of Arc this week. What is revealed in that true story is the how the strength of the church puts into bondage men and women alike and none can resist or stand against it’s evil. So true it is today. We call evil good and good evil. true bible answers . com

      • Brigitte

        Yes, that is so true. So much good being called evil and visa versa. My heart breaks as I was one of the Christians who believed all that so I understand but I see way to many that just are stiff necked and stubborn like the word says. They won’t even take the time to seek it out and see for themselves. I don’t know why Yah/God decided to show me and many others. My only thought is it is because we were tired of man and wanted truth so we allowed the paradigm to be shifted by the washing of His word. No man showed me, it was reading the word and studying. I could never go back to the way the modern church has taught us. My relationship with Him is so much deeper and closer then I could have ever imagined. I have drawn my line in the sand and I will not be moved. The days ahead will be tough. Persecution will be different and intense. If we stand for Him and His truths, it will automatically separate us from people and we will be called all kinds of names.

        For the first time in my life, I’m beginning to get the picture of what the disciples went through and the frustrations and why most of them were killed. We must love people but truth is love. That love is not accepted by most. Most want the tickle of the ears and what feels good. I have been there done that. All I want is Him and what He wants for me. Nothing else matters. If He tells me to be bold and speak His truth, I will do it, even if it means I’m not liked or popular.

        Shalom,
        Brigitte

      • bryan

        I wish I could say no man told me. But I had quit caring about the Word since it was done away with anyway. But I did hear the truth from a man and it caused me to look into whether it was true or not. Thus where I am today.

    • I apologize for my rude and incendiary response to you.

      • bryan

        Just wake up, Daniel. Wake up. Put aside the word of man and believe the Word of God. No matter the cost.

      • Yes, I pray for an awakening to who Jesus, Yeshua, can be to us and for us, to the power and great comfort of the Holy Spirit, and the love of Papa for his church. Awaken us Lord!

      • bryan

        It’s not about who he can be to us and for us. It is about who He is. This is the problem in the church, in that the church views things in regard to US. It is about him.. Yeshua, the creator, the one who walked with Adam, the one who spoke to Noah, the one who called out Abraham and imputed his righteousness to him, the one who entered into covenant with Abraham and made a promise to him, the one who wrestled with Jacob and gave him the name Israel, the one who sent Israel into Egypt and delivered them out of Egypt in order to glorify His name, the one who gave Israel the Torah at Sinai, the one who led Israel in the pilar of fire or cloud through the wilderness and gave us the picture of the rock struck for living water the first time and declared the second time, the one gave them the promised land, the one who continually called them back to His Torah, the one who divorced the northern tribes, th one who spoke to the prophets, the one who taught us the spirit of the law, the one who died so the wife, Israel, would no longer be an adulterer, the one who resurrected so the wife, Israel, could come back into covenant with Him, the one who because of His grace gives us eternal life when we believe, the one who calls himself, in Revelation, the one who was, is and is to come, the first and the last, the aleph and the tav…..that name is the one given to Moses at the burning bush, Yehovah.

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